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Message Digest 
Volume 28 : Issue 216 : "text" Format

Messages in this Issue:
  Re: Cell-phone generation increasingly disconnected    
  Re: Cell-phone generation increasingly disconnected
  Re: Cell-phone generation increasingly disconnected
  Re: More on distracted drivers
  Re: More on distracted drivers
  Re: More on distracted drivers
  Re: More on distracted drivers
  Mobile phones teach youths to focus on speed, not accuracy
  Comcast Reports Second Quarter 2009 Results
  Re: Comcast Reports Second Quarter 2009 Results
  Re: Comcast Reports Second Quarter 2009 Results
  Re: Comcast Reports Second Quarter 2009 Results
  Re: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song)
  "cramming" fraudulent phone charges, was: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song)
  Re: "cramming" fraudulent phone charges, was: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song)
  Re: "cramming" fraudulent phone charges, was: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song)
  Re: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song)
  Re: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song)
  Re: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song)
  Re: Who does today what Bell Labs did in the past?
  GSM-only interference
  Re: GSM-only interference
  Telco payments question
  Re: Telco payments question
  Re: Telco payments question


====== 27 years of TELECOM Digest -- Founded August 21, 1981 ====== Telecom and VOIP (Voice over Internet Protocol) Digest for the Internet. All contents here are copyrighted by Patrick Townson and the individual writers/correspondents. Articles may be used in other journals or newsgroups, provided the writer's name and the Digest are included in the fair use quote. By using -any name or email address- included herein for -any- reason other than responding to an article herein, you agree to pay a hundred dollars to the recipients of the email. =========================== Addresses herein are not to be added to any mailing list, nor to be sold or given away without explicit written consent. Chain letters, viruses, porn, spam, and miscellaneous junk are definitely unwelcome. We must fight spam for the same reason we fight crime: not because we are naive enough to believe that we will ever stamp it out, but because we do not want the kind of world that results when no one stands against crime. Geoffrey Welsh =========================== See the bottom of this issue for subscription and archive details and the name of our lawyer, and other stuff of interest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 02:13:32 -0400 From: Webrat <sub@mercury.windsaloft.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Cell-phone generation increasingly disconnected Message-ID: <h5dsak$jh$1@aioe.org> danny burstein wrote: > > Seems to me the same claims were made regarding prohibiting > smoking in airplanes, bars, restaurants, and stores. > > obtelecom: the fumes, ash, and particulates from cigarette > smoke dramatically raise the maintenance requirements at > any central office using step-by-step switches. They do the same thing to airliner equipment. One thing the mechanics did miss when smoking was first banned...were the nicotine stains on/about the doors/seals/vents/etc that indicated a pressurization leak. These weren't any kind of bad leak, just kind of a 'heads-up' that this area is needing some attention before it gets too bad; but aircraft mechanics are an obsessive lot. :)) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:13:39 -0800 From: John David Galt <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Cell-phone generation increasingly disconnected Message-ID: <h5f9t4$4gc$1@blue.rahul.net> Webrat wrote: > They do the same thing to airliner equipment. One thing the mechanics > did miss when smoking was first banned...were the nicotine stains > on/about the doors/seals/vents/etc that indicated a pressurization > leak. These weren't any kind of bad leak, just kind of a 'heads-up' > that this area is needing some attention before it gets too bad; but > aircraft mechanics are an obsessive lot. :)) According to Spider Robinson ("The Crazy Years"), the airlines got smoking banned aboard aircraft for a completely different reason: it meant they could slow down the air circulation systems in aircraft cabins by a factor of two or three (to save energy and money for the airline) without the fact being visible. The stagnant air that passengers now have to breathe as a result is almost certainly more of a health hazard than the slightly smoky air it replaces. ***** Moderator's Note ***** Sorry, that doesn't make sense. Jet aircraft have so much spare power that air circulation is never a problem: the engines provide pressurized air for free, so moving air through the cabin is very easy to do. In any case, it doesn't pass the common-sense test: why risk offending passengers when the aircraft has all the ventilation anyone could ever want? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 04:06:00 +0000 (UTC) From: David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Cell-phone generation increasingly disconnected Message-ID: <h5g978$ojr$2@reader1.panix.com> John David Galt <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> writes: >***** Moderator's Note ***** >Sorry, that doesn't make sense. Jet aircraft have so much spare power >that air circulation is never a problem: the engines provide >pressurized air for free, so moving air through the cabin is very easy >to do. But it does. You steal bleed air from an engine, or the system runs from AC from same. In either case, TANSTAAFL applies; their fuel costs go up. I've see the controls on a Airbus that allowed running one or both "pack"... With both, there was more air injected, hence more expelled. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 17:38:07 +1000 From: David Clayton <dcstar@myrealbox.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: More on distracted drivers Message-ID: <pan.2009.08.06.07.38.06.532775@myrealbox.com> On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 17:19:14 -0400, Geoffrey Welsh wrote: .......... > The problem is not the cellphone. The problem is not the GPS. The > problem is not the other teengers in the car. The problem is that drivers > (and, possibly, passengers) do not acknowledge that controlling a heavy > vehicle moving down a common pathway is a dangerous, potentially deadly, > activity and conduct themselves appropriately, including prioritizing > their activities or deciding not to do something because they need to > focus on driving. There are existing laws against bad driving which could > improve safety immensely if enforced but politicians do not have the > courage to crack down on bad driving because most of the people who vote > for them do it and would resent being pulled over for what "everybody" > does. So they blame scapegoats like cellphones rather than drivers. This > is NOT a technical problem! > > I can't see how this could change for the better, but I can certainly see > it getting worse... and, frankly, I'm frightened. > It may well get worse, but with cellphones there is now the technical ability to prove that a particular handset may have been on a call at the time of a particular incident (reading/writing text can't be caught, though). For most places passing a driving test means getting from point A to point B without breaking too many laws, it doesn't really prove that you sufficient driving skills (or the proper attitude) for the increasingly hazardous environment that the roads are these days - and the developed countries are way ahead of places like India and South Africa where the road trauma rates are horrendous in comparison! I don't know what the real answer is, but I would think it has to start with people recognising that being allowed to drive a vehicle is a privilege that can be lost, not a god-given right regardless of the threat it may pose to innocent people. -- Regards, David. David Clayton Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Knowledge is a measure of how many answers you have, intelligence is a measure of how many questions you have. ***** Moderator's Note ***** The "real answer" varies according to your background, status, wealth, and position in society. If you're an executive in the cellular industry, you'll probably oppose any change that reduces (or threatens to reduce) cellular revenues. Nothing personal, it's just business, and your only human, so you'll find excuses to justify the use of cellphones while driving. If you're a politician, you'll listen to the cellular executive, because he has money to pay for the TV ads on your next election campaign, _unless_ enough people (it's a large number, btw) come to believe that _you_ should do something about it, in which case you'll adopt a public posture which gives the impression that you're doing something but does, in reality, make little or no difference. If you're a salesman, worried about making your quota and dropping off the present for your lead customer's daughter's birthday and how to sell the next mid-life kicker on your somewhat outdated product line, you'll be feeling the same thing that a heroin addict feels when the needle goes in: you know it's hurting you in the long term, but you can't get past the need to feel productive and important and successful _now_. You'll lobby against, ignore, and/or find ways to hide your cellular use while driving. If you're a bureaucrat in a large corporation (several come to mind ;-)), you'll probably resent the fact that cellular calls are an intrusion on your driving time, which may be the only quiet interval in your day. You'll keep the phone off and check voice mail after you're at the office, and you'll applaud laws that forbid cellular use while driving. "You know where it ends Yo, it usually depends on where you start" - Everlast ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 2009 15:25:19 -0000 From: John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: More on distracted drivers Message-ID: <20090806152519.62758.qmail@simone.iecc.com> >It may well get worse, but with cellphones there is now the technical >ability to prove that a particular handset may have been on a call at >the time of a particular incident (reading/writing text can't be >caught, though). Of course, that doesn't show who was using the phone. If I'm driving with a family member and the phone rings, I hand it to her and ask her to answer it. >I don't know what the real answer is, but I would think it has to >start with people recognising that being allowed to drive a vehicle is >a privilege that can be lost, not a god-given right regardless of the >threat it may pose to innocent people. Too bad you can't legislate being reasonable. R's, John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 17:06:55 -0500 From: John Mayson <john@mayson.us> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: More on distracted drivers Message-ID: <6645152a0908061506s1097f59cxfa0159d9fee0540f@mail.gmail.com> Bill, as usual, feel free to kill this one if you see fit. :-) On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:25 AM, John Levine<johnl@iecc.com> wrote: > > Too bad you can't legislate being reasonable. I keep telling myself I'm going to write an 800-page book criticizing what American society has become. I am not a liberal elitist. I have never sympathized with any totalitarian regime be it left or right-wing. In fact I consider myself to be mostly libertarian and it's because of this is why I am so critical of American culture and soceity. I firmly believe so many social ills have their roots in the fact that people simply don't know how to conduct their own lives nor do they practice personal responsibility. I do not advocate telling people how to live their lives. However since more and more adults are showing themselves incapable of acting responsibly, it opens the door wider and wider for government intrusion in all our lives. In college I knew two people. One was born in the USSR, a country that still existed at the time. The other was a black man from South Africa, this being the Apartheid era. They both said to me a number of times over the years I knew them that Americans squander their freedom. Our personal freedoms have never seriously been challenged since the founding of the republic, so we really don't value them. At the time I dismissed the criticism as people taking cheap, easy shots at the greatest nation on earth. But 20 years later I see what they mean. Freedom to many Americans means to freedom to act as childishly and [boorishly] as possible. The reaction I have seen from people concerning cell phone bans while driving reminds me of watching a toddler at a supermarket being told he can't have any candy. Instead of deciding to be part of the solution and only use a cell phone when it's safe they throw a tantrum, say "they'll never take my cell phone away" and pepper it with accusations of a police state. Author and social critic, James Howard Kunstler, is even more cynical calling certain segments of our adult population "violent clowns" based on how idioticly they dress and [how] they take everything as a personal affront. I realize this strays pretty far from telecom, so I'll being it back. In my mind restoring order and safety by regulating cell phone use is akin to handing New Orleans residents tattered umbrellas to survive the next Katrina. It's not going to do much. I don't think we have the political will any more to hold everyone accountable for their indiscretions. Yeah, we get tough with child predators and murders. But asking someone to refrain from cell phone use to put a dent into the 40,000+ traffic deaths, which far exceeds our murder rate, is simply too much. Remember the Beltway Sniper from a few years back. During his killing spree four times as [many] people in the Virginia/DC/Maryland area were killed in crashes. But that's somehow okay. John -- John Mayson <john@mayson.us> Austin, Texas, USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 17:39:35 +1000 From: David Clayton <dcstar@myrealbox.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: More on distracted drivers Message-ID: <pan.2009.08.06.07.39.35.152140@myrealbox.com> On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 11:41:07 -0400, Steven wrote: > David Clayton wrote: > >> This comes after another trial where another "professional" truck driver >> was found not guilty after colliding with a passenger train in the >> country on a day with perfect, sunny conditions with the crossing lights >> working correctly - also killing multiple people and maiming others. >> >> It seems that some juries containing drivers are extremely forgiving of >> other drivers - and if those on trial may have been using a phone, well >> we all do it, don't we?...... :-( > > Did they happen to say if the jury were talking and texting on their > cellphone during the trial and deliberations? I didn't see that mentioned, but I seem to recall some reports of jurors being threatened with contempt if they were caught doing such things in previous court reports. -- Regards, David. David Clayton Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Knowledge is a measure of how many answers you have, intelligence is a measure of how many questions you have. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 17:45:01 +1000 From: David Clayton <dcstar@myrealbox.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Mobile phones teach youths to focus on speed, not accuracy Message-ID: <pan.2009.08.06.07.45.01.343445@myrealbox.com> http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25887488-662,00.html Mobile phones teach youths to focus on speed, not accuracy Article from: Herald Sun Peter Familari August 05, 2009 05:00pm A NEW study suggests young heavy mobile phone users have poorer memory, slower reaction times and make more mistakes. A recent study of 300 students aged 12 to 14 from 20 Melbourne private and state schools shows children who use their mobile a lot may be sacrificing accuracy for speed. The study by researchers from Monash University shows kids regarded as heavy mobile phone users were likely to have poorer memory, react slower to set tasks and made more mistakes than students who used their mobiles a lot less. "We took into account age, gender, ethnicity and socio-economic status in our research," one of the report's authors, Dr Geza Benke, said. "But simply put, mobile phones may be teaching kids to go for speed rather than accuracy." The Monash University report found that overall mobile phone use was associated with faster and less accurate responses to high level cognitive tests. The good news is the students' error rate was unlikely to be linked to mobile phone radiation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 08:09:48 -0400 From: Monty Solomon <monty@roscom.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Comcast Reports Second Quarter 2009 Results Message-ID: <p0624082fc6a0783c619d@[10.0.1.3]> Comcast Reports Second Quarter 2009 Results http://www.cmcsk.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=118591&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1317694&highlight= Consolidated Revenue Increased 4.5% Consolidated Operating Cash Flow Increased 5.5% Consolidated Operating Income Increased 7.1% Earnings per Share of $0.33 Increased 57.1% Generated Free Cash Flow of $1.2 Billion Repurchased 15.5 Million Common Shares for $215 Million Financial Tables http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/11/118591/Q209.htm PDF Version http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTIyNzR8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlPTM=&t=1 Trending Schedules (PDF) http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTIyNzd8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlPTM=&t=1 Trending Schedules (XLS) http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTIyNzh8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlPTM=&t=1 Click Here for Webcast http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?p=irol-eventDetails&c=118591&eventID=2285950 ***** Moderator's Note ***** I would really like to know how Comcast has the gaul to list Goodwill 14,889 14,928 (in Millions) ... on their balance sheet. I _might_ believe it was a valid entry if it showed a negative number, but to make such a Blue Sky claim just boggles my mind. Bill Horne Moderator ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 2009 16:17:11 -0000 From: John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Comcast Reports Second Quarter 2009 Results Message-ID: <20090806161711.7001.qmail@simone.iecc.com> >I would really like to know how Comcast has the gaul to list > >Goodwill 14,889 14,928 (in Millions) It's just an accounting entry from when they bought other companies, the excess of what they paid over the acquisition's book value. Normally it's written off over some number of years. It certainly doesn't imply that anyone likes them. R's, John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:20:20 -0500 From: bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Comcast Reports Second Quarter 2009 Results Message-ID: <nKWdnXGSbZNJjebXnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@posted.nuvoxcommunications> In article <p0624082fc6a0783c619d@[10.0.1.3]>, Monty Solomon <monty@roscom.com> wrote: > >Comcast Reports Second Quarter 2009 Results >http://www.cmcsk.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=118591&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1317694&highlight= > >Consolidated Revenue Increased 4.5% >Consolidated Operating Cash Flow Increased 5.5% >Consolidated Operating Income Increased 7.1% >Earnings per Share of $0.33 Increased 57.1% >Generated Free Cash Flow of $1.2 Billion Repurchased 15.5 Million Common >Shares for $215 Million > >Financial Tables >http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/11/118591/Q209.htm > >PDF Version >http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTIyNzR8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlPTM=&t=1 > >Trending Schedules (PDF) >http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTIyNzd8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlPTM=&t=1 > >Trending Schedules (XLS) >http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTIyNzh8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlPTM=&t=1 > >Click Here for Webcast >http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?p=irol-eventDetails&c=118591&eventID=2285950 > >***** Moderator's Note ***** > >I would really like to know how Comcast has the gaul to list ^^^^ Nit: Your spell checquer mis-led you. The correct spelling is 'gall'. >Goodwill 14,889 14,928 (in Millions) > >... on their balance sheet. I _might_ believe it was a valid entry if >it showed a negative number, but to make such a Blue Sky claim just >boggles my mind. It isn't a Blue Sky claim -- it's a real, _auditable_ number. The explanation is *really* quite simple -- the word doesn't mean what you think it does. <wry grin> "Goodwill" is a 'term of art' in the accounting trade. It is the part of the price you pay for acquiring an existing business, that is _in_excess_of_ the value of the physical assets you are acquiring. This is a recognition of the fact that the existing customers of a business are 'probably' going to continue to do business with the company, even though it has been bought by 'somebody else'. There is a 'value' to that future stream of revenue (sales) -- that 'value' comes from the work done _before_ the company's purchase, by the 'then' owners (now the 'seller') of the company. Thus, they deserve compensation for that work, and since the buyer is the one that will reap the (eventual) benefit of that work, the buyer gives money to the seller as that compensation. BUT, you have to 'account' for it on the books, "somehow". So, that money spent is 'set off' against the acquisition of an 'intangible asset' called "good will". Because it's an 'intangible', it doesn't wear out, it doesn't become obsolete, etc. And, therefore, it is stuck on the 'books', _forever_. Because of that, it bears no relation to 'reality' in any way. <wry grin> ***** Moderator's Note ***** I'm not an accountant, so this is a layman's view. I thought "Blue Sky" was the accounting term applied to intangibles such as "good will". If that's not correct, let me know. I also thought that the purchase price of a company, above the book value of the assets, had to be listed as a long term investment and discounted (as John Levine said) over some period of time. Is that correct? Bill Horne Moderator ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 01:26:07 +0000 (UTC) From: wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Comcast Reports Second Quarter 2009 Results Message-ID: <h5fvrf$sct$1@grapevine.csail.mit.edu> In article <nKWdnXGSbZNJjebXnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@posted.nuvoxcommunications>, Robert Bonomi <bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com> wrote: >I also thought that the purchase price of a company, above the book >value of the assets, had to be listed as a long term investment and >discounted (as John Levine said) over some period of time. Is that >correct? That was true, until SFAS 142 ("Goodwill and Other Intangible Assets") came into effect. SFAS 142 replaced the old system of scheduled amortization of goodwill with a new system of "impairment testing". Instead of assuming that the goodwill is automatically worth less over each successive year, the new system requires companies to determine the value of the business to which the goodwill is attached, both regularly and when management becomes aware of events which are likely to have a material negative impact, and make adjustments when they determine that the goodwill has been "impaired". The company's management is given a reasonable amount of latitude in how they actually figure out the value of a business; obviously, if it is being closed down, or sold for a loss, then they must write off the goodwill that this represents. (There are some weird circumstances in which you can even get "negative goodwill" in a business, which as I'm not an accountant I don't pretend to understand.) Pretty much every U.S. public company's annual report on SEC form 10-K will include an explanation of this, and describe how management determined the value of business, if they took an impairment charge. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:58:51 -0500 From: bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song) Message-ID: <irednQmOMPpWlubXnZ2dnUVZ_tmdnZ2d@posted.nuvoxcommunications> In article <h5as31$9om$1@blue.rahul.net>, John David Galt <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote: >>> "No collect or 3rd party billings, please." > >> It shouldn't have to be there at all since you can tell your LEC to >> put blocks on your line to prohibit third party billing or collect. > >I agree, but this hasn't worked since 1984. IXCs and CLECs either don't >know about your prohibition or just ignore it, and nothing can be done. You simply 'serve notice', formally, in writing, to the LEC that you forbid them, in accordance with {appropriate regulatory cite), to apply any such charges to your account. Then, if/when such a charge occurs, you (a) notify the carrier you will not pay the charge, (b) demand it be removed from your account, (c) file a formal complaint with the State, _and_ Federal regulatory authorities, and last, but not least, if they take part of a payment made for _their_ services and send it to the scam biller (d) swear out a _criminal_ complaint against the LEC. Charges like: "theft by deception" (name the scam biller as well on this), 'accomplice before, during, and after the fact", "theft by conversion", not to mention the 'obvious' like 'fraud', 'bunco', etc. NOTIFYING the LEC that you 'intend' to do (d) if they fail to do (b), does tend to get 'corporate' attention. *Don't* make the mistake of sending these missives _with_ a bill-payment -- the _only_ thing that goes with the payment is the statement that those charges are 'disputed'. Send the other demands _separately_, to 'customer service', _with_ a duplicate, 'mailed under separate cover' (to use the traditional phrase), addressed to the 'legal' department. Remind 'legal' that you _did_ 'serve notice' on such- and-such date, per {regulatory cite}, that they _are_ in violation, and that they have now caused you 'actionable harm' by their negligence. Conclude on a 'conciliatory' note -- the you hope this situation can be remedied _before_ the damages you suffer are such that legal action becomes necessary. <evil grin> ***** Moderator's Note ***** IANAL. Crammers get away with their thefts because most users are too busy to even read the detailed part of their phone bills, let alone engage in a complicated and time-consuming complaint process that might or might not suceed. The FBI and Secret Service have been so overwhelmed by electronic fraud that they now refer complaints to a web site where they take reports automatically. I'd bet that neither the crammers nor the LEC's nor the IEC's are very afraid of individual consumers threatening legal action. But, as I said, IANAL. Bill Horne Moderator ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 17:46:02 +0000 (UTC) From: danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: "cramming" fraudulent phone charges, was: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song) Message-ID: <h5f4sq$4lo$1@reader1.panix.com> >***** Moderator's Note ***** >IANAL. >Crammers get away with their thefts because most users are too busy to >even read the detailed part of their phone bills, let alone engage in >a complicated and time-consuming complaint process that might or might >not suceed. I must respectfully disagree. Crammers and similar sleazoids get away with this because of collusion, whether by commission or ommission, with the billing telephone entity. Yes, the telco may have the legal requirement to grant "equal access" to their billing systems (and I'm not sure that's even the case) ... .. but, there's nothing to stop them from including language similar to the following when they sign those papers: "In the event there's a verified complaint rate of greater than X percent, this agreement is subject to immediate termination". Simple, objective, and standard business practice. The reluctance of the telcos to include this says quite a bit about their true intentions. -- _____________________________________________________ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key dannyb@panix.com [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] ***** Moderator's Note ***** I once coded PL/I in a NYNEX shop that billed over Six (B)Billion dollars per year. Setting up and terminating a billing agreement isn't something that would be subject to that kind of termination: it costs too much to start the process, and to maintain it, for the LEC involved to terminate it without an external authority such as the FCC being involved. I don't know what standard business practice is, but please remember that LEC's aren't a standard business: they don't get to choose their customers. All of their procedures and belief systems are based on the notion that they _Must_ take all comers. Bill Horne Moderator ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:32:29 -0700 From: Steven <diespammers@killspammers.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: "cramming" fraudulent phone charges, was: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song) Message-ID: <h5f82k$hg1$1@news.eternal-september.org> danny burstein wrote: >> ***** Moderator's Note ***** > >> IANAL. > >> Crammers get away with their thefts because most users are too busy to >> even read the detailed part of their phone bills, let alone engage in >> a complicated and time-consuming complaint process that might or might >> not suceed. > > I must respectfully disagree. Crammers and similar sleazoids > get away with this because of collusion, whether by commission > or ommission, with the billing telephone entity. [Moderator snip] > > > ***** Moderator's Note ***** > > I once coded PL/I in a NYNEX shop that billed over Six (B)Billion > dollars per year. Setting up and terminating a billing agreement isn't > something that would be subject to that kind of termination: it costs > too much to start the process, and to maintain it, for the LEC > involved to terminate it without an external authority such as the > FCC being involved. > > I don't know what standard business practice is, but please remember > that LEC's aren't a standard business: they don't get to choose their > customers. All of their procedures and belief systems are based on the > notion that they _Must_ take all comers. > > Bill Horne > Moderator It is my understanding that most LECs will not bill for 3rd party billing without prier permission. I found a couple of charges from a prison located in New York on my bill, [and] I contacted ([what was] at the time) SBC and disputed the charges: they removed them right at first request and that was the end of it. On my voice mail system it now clearly states that I don't accept collect calls, not that it would make any difference since most calls are made by voice robots. -- The only good spammer is a dead one!! Have you hunted one down today? (c) 2009 I Kill Spammers, inc, A Rot in Hell. Co. ***** Moderator's Note ***** I sometimes feel that Ma Bell's co-operative billing agreements are revenge for all the years she put up with we ungrateful wretches scamming her in ways both subtle and gross. ;-) My grandfather had a code book filled with hundreds of names, and he'd call his office at least once per day to find out if his pressence was required. If <name #99> wasn't available for a person-to-person call, he knew that nothing was going on. If his secretary said that <name #99> wasn't available, but <name #15> was, he knew that he had to rearrange his schedule to go see <name #15>. My grandfather was a state representative, and chair of the committee that oversaw New England Telephone & Telegraph, so I suppose he had a wider lattitude than many others, but such scams were common in the days when a "long distance" call could cost an average worker a day's pay. Bill Horne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:12:12 -0700 From: Steven <diespammers@killspammers.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: "cramming" fraudulent phone charges, was: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song) Message-ID: <h5fad6$78r$1@news.eternal-september.org> Steven wrote: > danny burstein wrote: >>> ***** Moderator's Note ***** >> >>> IANAL. >> >>> Crammers get away with their thefts because most users are too busy to >>> even read the detailed part of their phone bills, let alone engage in >>> a complicated and time-consuming complaint process that might or might >>> not suceed. >> >> I must respectfully disagree. Crammers and similar sleazoids >> get away with this because of collusion, whether by commission >> or ommission, with the billing telephone entity. [Moderator snip] >> >> >> ***** Moderator's Note ***** >> >> I once coded PL/I in a NYNEX shop that billed over Six (B)Billion >> dollars per year. Setting up and terminating a billing agreement isn't >> something that would be subject to that kind of termination: it costs >> too much to start the process, and to maintain it, for the LEC >> involved to terminate it without an external authority such as the >> FCC being involved. >> >> I don't know what standard business practice is, but please remember >> that LEC's aren't a standard business: they don't get to choose their >> customers. All of their procedures and belief systems are based on the >> notion that they _Must_ take all comers. >> >> Bill Horne >> Moderator > > It is my understanding that most LECs will not bill for 3rd party > billing without prier permission. I found a couple of charges from a > prison located in New York on my bill, [and] I contacted ([what was] > at the time) SBC and disputed the charges: they removed them right at > first request and that was the end of it. On my voice mail system it > now clearly states that I don't accept collect calls, not that it > would make any difference since most calls are made by voice robots. > I remember calling home from where I was and would ask for myself, that way my parents would know where I was. Later when I worked for GTE I was able to make calls from the office when I was out of area, they later gave us calling cards top use for both personal and business. Deregulation ended that. In 1984 we were given cell phones by the company and that was before the calling plans, but they also put a set amount on the account each month to cover our use; I never went over the amount. -- The only good spammer is a dead one!! Have you hunted one down today? (c) 2009 I Kill Spammers, inc, A Rot in Hell. Co. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 12:04:43 -0700 (PDT) From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song) Message-ID: <1e419de7-0f54-4d53-bb91-f3d3566a3b21@o13g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 1:26 pm, bon...@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote: > You simply 'serve notice', formally, in writing, to the LEC that you forbid > them, in accordance with {appropriate regulatory cite), to apply any such > charges to your account. Determining the proper regulatory citation is not an easy task. Many laws/regulations are written with exception situations described in different paragraphs. So even if you cite paragraph (1)(c)(ii), buried below paragraph (1)(d)(iv) might cancel it out. You would need a specialist in regulatory law to dig out all the appropriate paragraphs to insure your letter makes a valid citation. Also, you might just discover that the exceptions to the process give you, the consumer, not much ground to stand on.) For example, many consumers are aware of the Do Not Call lists, and even are aware of the many exceptions these lists have. But many consumers probably do NOT know that the lists expire after a few years and names must be reposted. Common sense would dictate once listed a name would be permanent unless explicitly removed; after all, most people hate soliciting calls. > Then, if/when such a charge occurs, you (a) notify the carrier you > will not pay the charge, (b) demand it be removed from your account, > (c) file a formal complaint with the State, _and_ Federal regulatory > authorities, and last, but not least, if they take part of a payment > made for _their_ services and send it to the scam biller (d) swear > out a _criminal_ complaint against the LEC. Charges like: "theft by > deception" (name the scam biller as well on this), 'accomplice > before, during, and after the fact", "theft by conversion", not to > mention the 'obvious' like 'fraud', 'bunco', etc.   It's real easy to write a letter like that. But, sadly, it's real easy for your carrier to ignore it. These days carriers (and other businesses, too), have become awfully good at wearing someone down. Filing a complaint with State and Federal authorities takes up time and is not easy, filing a criminal complaint is particularly difficult. That's just the _filing_ part. Once filed, you have to follow up on these things, and the system puts you through the ringer for that, too. Many times one will have to spend hours far from home waiting in line to file papers or review progress. The reality is that the vast majority of people are too busy with work and family and have other priorities to deal with this stuff. Unless the charges are outrageous and the carrier refuses a request to cancel them, most people will just sigh and write out a check. Most people don't want to lose hundreds of dollars in wages to save $25 in a bad charge. > NOTIFYING the LEC that you 'intend' to do (d) if they fail to do > (b), does tend to get 'corporate' attention.   Not that long ago that would usuallly work. (Always use Certified Mail, Return-Receipt Requested, and keep copies of the receipts and correspondance). But carriers have gotten so big and arrogant in the new age that they just don't care, and these days your efforts might not be successful. Indeed, I'm waiting on a response from corporate but I'm not holidng my breath. > *Don't* make the mistake of sending these missives _with_ a > bill-payment -- the _only_ thing that goes with the payment is the > statement that those charges are 'disputed'.  Send the other demands > _separately_, to 'customer service',  _with_ a duplicate, 'mailed > under separate cover' (to use the traditional phrase), addressed to > the 'legal' department.  Remind 'legal' that you _did_  'serve > notice' on such-and-such date, per {regulatory cite}, that they > _are_ in violation, and that they have now caused you 'actionable > harm' by their negligence.  Conclude on a 'conciliatory' note -- the > you hope this situation can be remedied _before_ the damages you > suffer are such that legal action becomes necessary. <evil grin> If someone is having a problem they certainly should follow the steps above. (Though finding the proper mailing address these days isn't easy; it's often not plainly posted.) I hate to be so cynical about this stuff, but as mentioned, companies these days simply aren't as customer friendly as they once were, even post divesture. Today it's "don't let the door hit you in the butt" if you threaten to take your business elsewhere. I think that's a really stupid way to run a business and chase your customers away, but I guess since all the carriers do it it doesn't hurt much. >***** Moderator's Note ***** > IANAL. > > Crammers get away with their thefts because most users are too busy to > even read the detailed part of their phone bills, let alone engage in > a complicated and time-consuming complaint process that might or might > not suceed. I have national flat rate service so there's no need for itemization. Yet my home phone bill is so thick it requires extra postage for weight. It is mostly undecipherable, with all sorts of different sections and overlaps. I deal with only one carrier, but the carrier has numerous subsets, for example, there's multiple long distance portions (again, flat rate) which still takes up two pages with numerous fees and charges. There are numerous line item charges of $0.03 or so; why the heck can't that chickensh** be rolled up? > The FBI and Secret Service have been so overwhelmed by electronic > fraud that they now refer complaints to a web site where they take > reports automatically. I'd bet that neither the crammers nor the LEC's > nor the IEC's are very afraid of individual consumers threatening > legal action. > > But, as I said, IANAL. The only time they act is when a great many consumers have an identical problem against a single really sleazy outfit. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 18:40:08 -0600 From: Robert Neville <dont@bother.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song) Message-ID: <8ttm75d03euo0d65q5chhoiscl1f52n1a9@4ax.com> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: >For example, many consumers are aware of the Do Not Call lists, and >even are aware of the many exceptions these lists have. But many >consumers probably do NOT know that the lists expire after a few years >and names must be reposted. Common sense would dictate once listed a >name would be permanent unless explicitly removed; after all, most >people hate soliciting calls. Sorry - this is not correct. Once registered,the number does not expire. http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2008/04/dncfyi.shtm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 21:03:34 -0700 From: Steven <diespammers@killspammers.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Skipping the announcement (was Re: Pop song) Message-ID: <h5g9hg$t1h$1@news.eternal-september.org> Robert Neville wrote: > hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: > >> For example, many consumers are aware of the Do Not Call lists, and >> even are aware of the many exceptions these lists have. But many >> consumers probably do NOT know that the lists expire after a few years >> and names must be reposted. Common sense would dictate once listed a >> name would be permanent unless explicitly removed; after all, most >> people hate soliciting calls. > > > Sorry - this is not correct. Once registered,the number does not expire. > > http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2008/04/dncfyi.shtm > The rules had changed, I believe beforeit was five years, now it is forever, Not that the Teleslim care. -- The only good spammer is a dead one!! Have you hunted one down today? (c) 2009 I Kill Spammers, inc, A Rot in Hell. Co. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 16:26:39 -0500 From: John Mayson <john@mayson.us> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Who does today what Bell Labs did in the past? Message-ID: <6645152a0908061426p207ec030m1d9ee004db1e901d@mail.gmail.com> I had the very good fortune of working at two Bell Labs sites when I was in college. I was studying electrical engineering at Georgia Tech and participated in the co-op program where I worked at AT&T. There was special project involving teams from Bell Labs and the various regional offices of AT&T across the country. We had a guy up in New Jersey, but with his family back in Georgia he couldn't do it any more. So they asked if I wanted to go. I was running out the door with my one-way ticket to Newark before I could finish saying "Yes!". I first worked at their Red Hill site and then the team moved to Middletown. I used to visit the Holmdel site periodically. I loved their technical library. I wanted to make a career out of Bell Labs. But by the time I graduated in 1992 it already wasn't the place I knew just two years prior. Some time in 1990 when I was there they announced Bell Labs would have to show a profit. That just stunned so many people there. They used to have the freedom to research and didn't have to worry about suits watching the finances. It was mesmerizing just to sit down at lunch and talk to these folks. They were very kind and loved talking about their careers and the things they had worked on. I was working late one evening and saw what appeared to be an AT&T 49 MHz cordless phone that had been run over by a tank. It was sitting in a chair. I followed the cord at least 100 yards into a lab where two engineers were running tests. They invited me in and told me their jobs were to destroy phones and see how well they continued to work. I do think the nation, actually the world, greatly benefitted from the work performed at Bell Labs. As a consumer I do think we're better off with competition. Not trying to start a flame war, just my opinion. But I do think we need another Bell Labs. We do have a patchwork of university and quasi-government labs and they I'm sure are discovering wonderful things. But I would like to see a well-funded skunk works somewhere that hires the best engineers and scientists and just stand back and watch what they come up with. John -- John Mayson <john@mayson.us> Austin, Texas, USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 17:10:57 -0700 From: Thad Floryan <thad@thadlabs.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: GSM-only interference Message-ID: <4A7B7111.7050404@thadlabs.com> I searched this group for "GSM interference" within Google Groups and found nothing, so this may be "something new" for some readers. Yesterday, after a lunch meeting with a Nokia guru, we adjourned to my home office to review some matters and, within seconds of booting one of my systems, a "noise problem" that has sort-of bugged me for a year evidenced itself. The Nokia guru instantly stated that sound was GSM interference. I was both relieved and puzzled; my cell phone is a Motorola RAZR V3. Relieved because I now knew for certain the "sound" wasn't a virus or other malware. My concern began last year when I first heard a "dit-dit-dit dit-dit-dit dit-dit-dit dit-dit-dit" and thought some malware had somehow arrived on my system. Using Process Explorer and several AV scans revealed nothing, and since the sound only appeared no more than once or twice every day and then only for a second or two, I tolerated it. Puzzled because the Nokia guru stated this was a common and known problem. So bad that in fact at Nokia HQ they turn off all the Polycomm conference room phones when having a meeting; he stated also that Polycomm phones are the worst offender in this regards. Later I did a normal Google search using "GSM interference" and, WHOA!, 1000s of pages of hits. Many affecting pro audio studios' sound mixing consoles. Long story short, this "GSM inteference" appears to be a widespread problem and it's only with GSM, not any of the other cell phone or PDA technologies. To hear the sound I'm talking about (just a few seconds each): http://www.corporatetalkradio.com/databurst.mp3 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1mlponX_jw Here's one explanation for the sound which I found here: http://www.corporatetalkradio.com/thatnoise.html " If you ever do any type of recording or use devices with " audio components the day will come where you hear this " awful racket. Some call it buzz, some say it sounds like " a fax machine and others call it things I won't print here. " It sounds like this. What is that noise? It's a BlackBerry® " type device or an iPhone (GSM) checking in with master " control. It is the sound of digital data being transmitted. " At very low levels (when the phone is some distance away), " the "buzz" may not be heard, but your audio will sound like " there's some "fuzz" on it. The guilty device can be anywhere " in the room, possibly passing in the hallway or all the way " across the lobby. It is imperative that you monitor your " recording because you never know when the problem will occur. " " What can you do about it? " Have the device turned OFF. Not on silent or vibrate but OFF. " If the device must remain on, then create as much distance " between the device and the audio equipment. The greater the " distance, the softer the interference. " " Cellular phones (GSM , TDMA), iPhones, or a BlackBerry® and " the like send out strong electromagnetic (EM) pulses as data " messages. They check in with the network for messages and to " report their location. CDMA phones and BlackBerry® devices " (Verizon) usually do NOT cause any problems. So, how did GSM ever get FCC approval given this very widespread RFI/EMI problem? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 23:20:30 -0500 From: John Mayson <john@mayson.us> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: GSM-only interference Message-ID: <6645152a0908062120h24a64451we48ba0f68cc64d@mail.gmail.com> I have a friend back in Atlanta who's a pretty straight-shooters. I don't think he was making this up. He placed his GSM phone on his paper shredder to charge as his cord wasn't long enough to reach anything else. His paper shredder kept turning on and then off all by itself. He moved the phone and it stopped. John -- John Mayson <john@mayson.us> Austin, Texas, USA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:23:27 +1000 From: David Clayton <dcstar@myrealbox.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Telco payments question Message-ID: <pan.2009.08.07.03.23.26.899121@myrealbox.com> In Australia all the major telcos will now charge customers extra for paying their bills by non-electronic means, has this sort of thing become the norm in the US and other countries? -- Regards, David. David Clayton Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Knowledge is a measure of how many answers you have, intelligence is a measure of how many questions you have. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 23:30:29 -0500 From: John Mayson <john@mayson.us> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Telco payments question Message-ID: <6645152a0908062130j172adc3ay4ba390bee99d0611@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:23 PM, David Clayton<dcstar@myrealbox.com> wrote: > In Australia all the major telcos will now charge customers extra for > paying their bills by non-electronic means, has this sort of thing become > the norm in the US and other countries? Airlines and banks have started charging extra for non-electronic interactions. The 7-11 ATMs used to be quite handy. I could pay our phone, electricity, and gas bills at the ATM. And once upon a time you could buy Southwest Airlines tickets through them. John -- John Mayson <john@mayson.us> Austin, Texas, USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 21:38:07 -0700 From: Steven <diespammers@killspammers.com> To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu Subject: Re: Telco payments question Message-ID: <h5gbi9$bkc$1@news.eternal-september.org> David Clayton wrote: > In Australia all the major telcos will now charge customers extra for > paying their bills by non-electronic means, has this sort of thing become > the norm in the US and other countries? > If you want to pay your bill at a Sprint store and don't ise oen the of terminals they charge, unless the terminal is down, at&t charges or at least the place you pay it at does. I do all mine online at their web page. -- The only good spammer is a dead one!! Have you hunted one down today? (c) 2009 I Kill Spammers, inc, A Rot in Hell. Co. ------------------------------ TELECOM Digest is an electronic journal devoted mostly to telecom- munications topics. 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