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Message Digest
Volume 28 : Issue 206 : "text" Format
Messages in this Issue:
Re: Cellphones and driving
Re: Cellphones and driving
Re: Cellphones and driving
Re: Cellphones and driving
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Skype apparently threatens Russian national security
Re: Skype apparently threatens Russian national security
Re: Skype apparently threatens Russian national security
Re: Polling switches for record information - any guidance?
Cellphone tower coverage Qs
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: What is this device called
Re: Walter's Telephones
Re: Cellphone savings worth research
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:26:43 +1000
From: David Clayton <dcstar@myrealbox.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Cellphones and driving
Message-ID: <pan.2009.07.27.07.26.42.838735@myrealbox.com>
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:02:26 -0400, John David Galt wrote:
> David Clayton wrote:
>> Too many people reject attempts to reduce any problem if the proposed
>> solution isn't somehow "perfect" in obtaining a 100% solution to the
>> issue.
>>
>> I rather have 70% (or whatever the compliance rate actually is) less
>> people using phones while driving because that reduces that particular
>> risk to everyone else by that amount, if 30% continue to indulge in that
>> sort of risky behaviour then it is still far better than the original
>> situation.
>
> The vast majority of drivers are still phoning while driving (not a
> scientific survey, just my personal observation).
>
> If we want drivers to obey this law, then let's increase the penalty
> and/or create more enforcement mechanisms (for instance, have the red
> light camera operators look for people phoning). Otherwise, repeal it.
Hey, I reckon that any driver caught illegally using a phone should have
the phone immediately confiscated and smashed to bits before their eyes.
Give that sort of enforcement a few months of use and then see the
compliance rate soar...... :-)
--
Regards, David.
David Clayton
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
Knowledge is a measure of how many answers you have, intelligence is a
measure of how many questions you have.
***** Moderator's Note *****
My first reaction to David's idea was "Get Real!" ... but then I
remembered seeing film of a Connecticut State Trooper confiscating a
radar detector, so now I'm not sure if it's such a far-fetched
idea. Any lawyers want to weigh in?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:56:14 -0700
From: Steven <diespammers@killspammers.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Cellphones and driving
Message-ID: <h4kf6f$js5$1@news.eternal-september.org>
David Clayton wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:02:26 -0400, John David Galt wrote:
>
>> David Clayton wrote:
>>> Too many people reject attempts to reduce any problem if the proposed
>>> solution isn't somehow "perfect" in obtaining a 100% solution to the
>>> issue.
>>>
>>> I rather have 70% (or whatever the compliance rate actually is) less
>>> people using phones while driving because that reduces that particular
>>> risk to everyone else by that amount, if 30% continue to indulge in that
>>> sort of risky behaviour then it is still far better than the original
>>> situation.
>> The vast majority of drivers are still phoning while driving (not a
>> scientific survey, just my personal observation).
>>
>> If we want drivers to obey this law, then let's increase the penalty
>> and/or create more enforcement mechanisms (for instance, have the red
>> light camera operators look for people phoning). Otherwise, repeal it.
>
> Hey, I reckon that any driver caught illegally using a phone should have
> the phone immediately confiscated and smashed to bits before their eyes.
>
> Give that sort of enforcement a few months of use and then see the
> compliance rate soar...... :-)
>
A law would have to be passed, several states have those types of
traffic laws on the books, one southern state takes the car also.
--
The only good spammer is a dead one!! Have you hunted one down today?
(c) 2009 I Kill Spammers, inc, A Rot in Hell. Co.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:45:54 EDT
From: Wesrock@aol.com
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Cellphones and driving
Message-ID: <cbd.4386a8df.379f9632@aol.com>
In a message dated 7/27/2009 9:26:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net writes:
> Doesn't take much to slow down traffic. On a recent road trip to North
> Carolina I noted traffic jams most often occured near toll booths. About
> 4 miles out you'd come to a complete standstill and then inch your way
> to the tolls.
>
> They have to do something about that.
It would cost money--more toll booths, more toll takers. Many things
people think something ought to be done about never do get done,
especially if the state or turnpike authority can't can't find the
money..
Wes Leatherock
wesrock@aol.com
wleathus@yahoo.com
***** Moderator's Note *****
They could install high-speed readers for cars with transponders, and
promote the service and the time saved in the 'Fly By' lane. That
would cost very little in relative terms, especially compared to the
value of the time wasted by all those motorists.
And if 'Fly By' isn't a trade mark, I claim it here and now.
Copyright (C) 2009 E. W. Horne. All Rights Reserved. (So there)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:01:52 -0400
From: T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Cellphones and driving
Message-ID: <MPG.24d77d5733e74875989b1f@news.eternal-september.org>
In article <h4j678$vfa$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
diespammers@killspammers.com says...
>
> Thad Floryan wrote:
> > On 7/26/2009 1:56 PM, Steven Lichter wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> California enforces it and the fines add up, but more people are
> >> violating it now then when it first passed, some claim they did not know
> >> it was the law, others from out of state say the same; even though there
> >> are ads on TV, Radio and billboards.
> >> [...]
> >
> > Locally (Silicon Valley) there's a column in the San Jose Mercury News
> > (SJMN) named "Road Show" (though we often joke it's "Road Kill" :-).
> > I'm in frequent email contact with the columnist, Gary Richards, and
> > feed him a lot of behind-the-scenes info (including what we discuss
> > here), such as the NY Times articles, especially the one about the
> > suppressed cellphone driving info.
> >
> > The SJMN requires one to signup (free) to view their pages (and I must
> > reenter my password once a month or so when cookies expire). A story
> > in today's column is almost unbelievable.
> >
> > If you have/want access to the online SJMN, the article is here:
> >
> > http://www.mercurynews.com/mrroadshow/ci_12908862
> >
> > Following is a formatted copy'n'paste of the specific story:
> >
> > Q: The other morning, I was driving to work on Interstate 880, and
> > my little car was nearly sideswiped by a giant SUV that drifted
> > into my lane as if I weren't there. Furious at nearly being
> > squashed, I drove up next to the SUV, but before I could sternly
> > shake my fist at it, I spotted a young woman behind the wheel
> > holding a phone in one hand and punching in a text message with
> > the other. I rode alongside her for about 10 seconds, and I never
> > saw her look up at the road once. She was completely engrossed in
> > what was going on in her lap.
> >
> > Bruce Newman
> > Los Gatos
> >
> > A: Bruce is a Mercury News reporter whose desk is near mine. He's
> > a very calm fellow, so when I heard him talking about this
> > incident, I asked him to tell me more.
> >
> > Q: Gary, I make it a practice to stay away from these texting
> > fools when I can, so I fell back several car lengths, still
> > fuming about what she had nearly done to me and the menace she
> > presented to others. Over the next couple of miles, she nearly
> > sideswiped a pickup and repeatedly drifted onto the left
> > shoulder. I fell behind an eighteen-wheeler and lost sight of her
> > for a while.
> >
> > Bruce Newman
> >
> > A: Unfortunately, it was not good riddance.
> >
> > Q: Then as I approached the San Jose airport I saw her again,
> > sitting in the middle lane of the freeway, going about 20 mph
> > while cars and trucks whizzed by on either side. Traffic had
> > slowed, and when it picked up again, she was so consumed with
> > texting that she had no idea what was going on around her. As I
> > passed by, I saw her furiously pecking away at that infernal
> > thing.
> >
> > Here's my question. I see those signs that say "Report drunk
> > drivers, call 911," and I really wanted to call and report
> > her. She clearly presented as great a hazard as any drunken
> > driver. But I figured if the CHP caught up to her and discovered
> > she wasn't drunk, they'd come after me for filing a false police
> > report. So I did nothing. Except fume. What should I have done?
> >
> > Bruce Newman
> >
> > A: This deserved a 911 call. When I asked the Highway Patrol if a
> > 911 call was appropriate, here is how Cristina-the-CHP-Lady
> > responded:
> >
> > "Absolutely. Sounds like a reckless driver to me. Call 911 and
> > provide the license plate, location, description of the driver
> > and the details of her recklessness. A log will be kept against
> > her plate and if she gets caught all the details will be on the
> > log, which will be attached to the citation."
> >
> > To the woman driving the champagne-colored BMW X5, the CHP now
> > has your license plate number.
> >
> The Press-Enterprise had a writer like him. He used to report on the
> roads and freeways around Riverside County. He had a thing for the 91
> Freeway, which is the only roadway between Riverside and Orange County.
> I have been using it since moving out here in 1977 and it was bad
> then, but they have made it larger added carpool and toll roads and it
> is still bad. He use to talk about traffic slowing down for no reason,
> then going normal again, he used to say it was aliens scooping up the
> cars. What it really caused it was people slowing down because a
> section of the road was torn up and stayed that way for ten years and
> thousands of dollars in damage claims.
Doesn't take much to slow down traffic. On a recent road trip to North
Carolina I noted traffic jams most often occured near toll booths. About
4 miles out you'd come to a complete standstill and then inch your way
to the tolls.
They have to do something about that.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:55:59 -0400
From: Eric Tappert <e.tappert.spamnot@worldnet.att.net>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <uccr65lo5g14k8s0jvmba03q3952jqd0ja@4ax.com>
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:28:01 -0400 (EDT), Bill Horne
<bill@horneQRM.net> wrote:
>Garrett Wollman wrote:
>
>> WPVI is still on channel 6.
>
>I've been Googling the DTV transition assignments, and came up with this
>document, entitled "DTV Tentative Channel Designations for the First and
>Second Rounds":
>
>http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1082A2.pdf
>
>.... which says that WPVI was assigned UHF channel 46 for DTV
>transmission. The document doesn't say what "first and second rounds"
>are (or were), but since others have said WPVI is using VHF Channel 6
>for DTV, I assume they were the transitional phases of the DTV switch,
>during which WPVI simulcast it's programming to the DTV audience on
>channel 46.
>
>This thread has gotten me curious: does anyone have the URL for the list
>of VHF channels that *were* retired/reassigned, and which ones are still
> available or in use for television? Does it vary by area, or is it the
>same throughout the U.S.?
>
>I'd also like to have a list of stations which switched to UHF channels
>for their final DTV assignment, and which ones remained on VHF (or moved
>there after the changeover). Does anyone have a URL?
>
>Bill Horne
Bill,
Try http://www.dtv.gov/stationlist.htm for a list of all DTV stations,
their channel assignments and the cutover dates. It is organized by
areas.
Eric T.
***** Moderator's Note *****
Thank you! That's perfect!
Some questions, after a quick look:
1. Are the digital channel numbers the same as the old analog ones,
i.e., does "Channel 12" occupy the same frequency range under the
analog _and_ the digital assignments? I know that there are a lot
of "Virtual" numbers that aren't actual frequency assignments, but
the list shows some digital channels next to each other, such as
channels 12 and 13 in Rhode Island, which used to be forbidden for
analog stations.
2. There are a lot more digital stations on VHF than I had expected,
since I had been under the impression that (one of) the
justifications for DTV was to "re-farm" allocations for new
services and public safety. Was there ever a fixed range of
frequencies that were to be reused for non-tv services, or are new
services expected to be frequency-agile and able to slip into
"white space" between the new DTV stations?
3. If I wanted to help out all the little old ladies who still have
rabit ears, could I rebroadcast the DTV stations onto analog
channels? Are there still translators in existence that do that?
Bill Horne
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:12:33 -0500
From: "David" <someone@somewhere.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <h4kk3o$uc4$1@news.eternal-september.org>
> ***** Moderator's Note *****
>
> Thank you! That's perfect!
>
> Some questions, after a quick look:
>
> 1. Are the digital channel numbers the same as the old analog ones,
> i.e., does "Channel 12" occupy the same frequency range under
> the analog _and_ the digital assignments? I know that there are
> a lot of "Virtual" numbers that aren't actual frequency
> assignments, but the list shows some digital channels next to
> each other, such as channels 12 and 13 in Rhode Island, which
> used to be forbidden for analog stations.
In most cases the stations want to be identified by their
old analog assignment and have chosen that for the PSIP
channel identification. The RF frequencies are the same.
Adjacent channels are allowed if about the same power level
from the same retransmitting site ([just] like CATV).
> 2. There are a lot more digital stations on VHF than I had
> expected, since I had been under the impression that (one of)
> the justifications for DTV was to "re-farm" allocations for new
> services and public safety. Was there ever a fixed range of
> frequencies that were to be reused for non-tv services, or are
> new services expected to be frequency-agile and able to slip
> into "white space" between the new DTV stations?
The spectrum removed from TV service is UHF channels 52-69.
> 3. If I wanted to help out all the little old ladies who still have
> rabit ears, could I rebroadcast the DTV stations onto analog
> channels? Are there still translators in existence that do that?
I suppose you could get a DTV converter and an RF modulator to do that
job. The coupon DTV converters all have channel 3/4 modulators though.
David
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:31:46 +0000 (UTC)
From: wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman)
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <h4l6c2$1mr9$1@grapevine.csail.mit.edu>
In article <h4kk3o$uc4$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
David <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
>In most cases the stations want to be identified by their
>old analog assignment and have chosen that for the PSIP
>channel identification.
In point of fact, they were not given a choice about it. The DTV
rules in effect on transition day required that stations use their old
analog channel as their virtual channel. The FCC has shown some
flexibility since then, mostly for stations that were "double out of
core" before the transition.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:44:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Neal McLain <nmclain@annsgarden.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <98b8d488-3f82-41bd-bca2-43648ae26185@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
On Jul 27, 9:43 am, Eric Tappert <e.tappert.spam...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:28:01 -0400 (EDT), Bill Horne
>
>
>
> <b...@horneQRM.net> wrote:
> >Garrett Wollman wrote:
>
> >> WPVI is still on channel 6.
>
> >I've been Googling the DTV transition assignments, and came up with this
> >document, entitled "DTV Tentative Channel Designations for the First and
> >Second Rounds":
>
> >http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1082A2.pdf
>
> >.... which says that WPVI was assigned UHF channel 46 for DTV
> >transmission. The document doesn't say what "first and second rounds"
> >are (or were), but since others have said WPVI is using VHF Channel 6
> >for DTV, I assume they were the transitional phases of the DTV switch,
> >during which WPVI simulcast it's programming to the DTV audience on
> >channel 46.
>
> >This thread has gotten me curious: does anyone have the URL for the list
> >of VHF channels that *were* retired/reassigned, and which ones are still
> > available or in use for television? Does it vary by area, or is it the
> >same throughout the U.S.?
>
> >I'd also like to have a list of stations which switched to UHF channels
> >for their final DTV assignment, and which ones remained on VHF (or moved
> >there after the changeover). Does anyone have a URL?
>
> >Bill Horne
>
> Bill,
>
> Try http://www.dtv.gov/stationlist.htm for a list of all DTV stations,
> their channel assignments and the cutover dates. It is organized by
> areas.
>
> Eric T.
>
> ***** Moderator's Note *****
>
> Thank you! That's perfect!
>
> Some questions, after a quick look:
>
> 1. Are the digital channel numbers the same as the old analog ones,
> i.e., does "Channel 12" occupy the same frequency range under the
> analog _and_ the digital assignments? I know that there are a lot
> of "Virtual" numbers that aren't actual frequency assignments, but
> the list shows some digital channels next to each other, such as
> channels 12 and 13 in Rhode Island, which used to be forbidden for
> analog stations.
>
> 2. There are a lot more digital stations on VHF than I had expected,
> since I had been under the impression that (one of) the
> justifications for DTV was to "re-farm" allocations for new
> services and public safety. Was there ever a fixed range of
> frequencies that were to be reused for non-tv services, or are new
> services expected to be frequency-agile and able to slip into
> "white space" between the new DTV stations?
>
> 3. If I wanted to help out all the little old ladies who still have
> rabit ears, could I rebroadcast the DTV stations onto analog
> channels? Are there still translators in existence that do that?
>
> Bill Horne
======================================================
Bill:
> 1. Are the digital channel numbers the same as the old analog ones,
> i.e., does "Channel 12" occupy the same frequency range under the
> analog _and_ the digital assignments?
Assuming the FCC's chart is up-to-date, the digital channel numbers in
use now (as in today) are (or should be) what the chart says they
are. A chart showing the temporary assignments in use before the
transition date is at http://www.transmitter.com/FCC98315/chanplan.html
As for your hypothetical "Channel 12", the digital may or may not
occupy the same frequency range that Channel 12 analog occupied.
Subject to some limitations, every (well, almost every) station could
choose to remain in its temporary digital channel or return to its old
analog channel. See Wollman's post of Jul 27, 12:25 am.
> I know that there are a lot of "Virtual" numbers that aren't actual
> frequency assignments ...
Indeed there are. Many (most?) stations have retained their old
analog channel numbers for promotional reasons even if they're
actually on a different channel. Case in point: Philadelphia's KYW-TV
is now on Channel 26, but still calls itself CBS3. http://cbs3.com/
> ... but the list shows some digital channels next to each other, such
> as channels 12 and 13 in Rhode Island, which used to be forbidden for
> analog stations.
I'm not sure I trust that chart. I can believe that 12 and 13 could
be adjacent in Providence, but I doubt that there are three digital
stations all operating on Channel 7 in Rapid City.
Neal McLain
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:34:45 +0000 (UTC)
From: wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman)
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <h4l6hl$1mr9$2@grapevine.csail.mit.edu>
In article <98b8d488-3f82-41bd-bca2-43648ae26185@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Neal McLain <nmclain@annsgarden.com> wrote:
>I'm not sure I trust that chart. I can believe that 12 and 13 could
>be adjacent in Providence, but I doubt that there are three digital
>stations all operating on Channel 7 in Rapid City.
Actually, that's entirely possible, assuming they are all the same
station, because the FCC now allows something called a "distributed
transmission system": instead of using one big facility to serve their
allocated coverage area, stations may elect to use multiple smaller
transmitters, possibly with directional antennas, to serve their
markets. A number of stations made the transition using DTS to reduce
the cost, particularly in rural areas where an omnidirectional antenna
would waste a lot of energy over sparsely-populated parts of the
market.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
***** Moderator's Note *****
Please tell us about the various combinations of mode and signal
available to digital stations. For example, if a station has two
separate broadcasts going on, as does channel 7 in Boston, are they
both being transmitted as part of the same digital stream, or are they
only logically linked and transmitted on separate physical channels?
What about channel 44 in Boston? It has four separate subchannels: are
they all just slots in one large bit stream coming out of WGBX's
transmitter?
I ask because I regularly get dropouts and pixelation on 7-2 when 7-1
is coming in OK, and likewise have trouble with 44-3 or 44-4 when
44-1 is fine. If they're all part of the same bit stream, why does the
problem affect only some of them and not all?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:17:56 +0000 (UTC)
From: David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <h4kng4$pvj$1@reader1.panix.com>
>***** Moderator's Note *****
>Thank you! That's perfect!
>Some questions, after a quick look:
>1. Are the digital channel numbers the same as the old analog ones,
> i.e., does "Channel 12" occupy the same frequency range under the
> analog _and_ the digital assignments? I know that there are a lot
> of "Virtual" numbers that aren't actual frequency assignments, but
> the list shows some digital channels next to each other, such as
> channels 12 and 13 in Rhode Island, which used to be forbidden for
> analog stations.
Depends on how you word the question.
DTV and NTSC frequencies are still in good old Megahertz. They get talked
about as channels by by some engineering types and yes they are the same
as always. I've seen various labels for those channels: "RF Channel" "raw
channel" etc. See that FCC spreadsheet for their term.
The viewer-seen "Channel" is now just a marketing logo. It has zero
correlation with the engineering one. In a FEW cases, they will be the
same [see below]; but stopped clocks, etc.
As others said, stations had the choice of a 1) new temporary frequency
or a 2) new permanent one [or 3), move twice]. There were tradeoffs
either way. With 1), they'd be able to use their existing antenna and
maybe transmitter final stages; with the new digital modulator. I don't
know how most NTSC transmitters did modulation, but will guess it was NOT
at the last stage. Correction welcome.
With 2) They could plow money into the digital transmitter and antenna
as a permanent investment.
Some fudged; I know WETA [RF-26] got RF-27 for DTV; I suspect they
retuned, not replaced, that antenna.
The economic analysis is actually a LOT more complex. In The Good Old
Daze, everyone wanted Low VHF [2-6] for max range aka market size. Then
color came along, and 2 etc had more issues with subcarrier phase shifts
and such.
Now, Low VHF greater multipath vulnerability is a bigger issue than
with NTSC.
But the BIG factor in the Musical Chairs game is: market areas have
changed. There was a time when that flyover state Chan 2 had a 1500 ft
tower to get way out to Hooterville and Bugtussle; now there's less
audience for Chan 2's ads over there. And the local cable system in those
burgs gives them NBC from a bird.
And for a REAL joker; some large % of TV station ad revenue dollars are
from {remember them?} local car dealers. There are far fewer of those and
less Detroit kickback money to pay for TV, etc...
>2. There are a lot more digital stations on VHF than I had expected,
....
I always figured the channel {interference} protection rules had to go
back to Philo and DeForest; ISTM there were not just adjacent no-use
areas, but also IF image ones, harmonics, images of harmonics, and you
name it. One reason is obvious; think about the selectivity and image
rejection of the circa 1930 tuners. I assume the FCC could/did use
the DTV adventure to /dev/null many of those old rules.
There was no plan to reassign VHF TV space to others users, but a chuck
of the UHF was peddled off at a very tidy sum. [THAT was the real
instigator of the whole process; the Hill wanted to auction off spectrum
space to cellco's to Make Money Fast...but they had to make the TV lobby
happy too.]
A very good place to look for ALL kinds of data is the "AVS forum"
site. They have some participants who know their stuph. One guy runs
<rabbitears.info> -- it's useful enough I bet even the FCC checks there.
Another note. Both the ABC & CBS outlets in DC, WJLA & WUSA, old 7 &
9, used the 1) plan above. When D-Day came, and they abandoned their
temporary UHF slots; they were flooded with complaints by people who
could no longer receive them, but had in NTSC. [As well as those who
needed to rescan..] Even the WashPost Technology editor was a victim.
No one has yet to offer a lucid explanation as to why their DTV coverage
was so much poorer than predicted. One or both got interim power
increases [I am GLAD I was not working at the FCC Broadcast Bureau that
week...] but have nearby co-channel neighbors as well. [Maybe Delaware in
one case; I don't recall.] In any case, there are unhappy campers out there
still.
One last thing to recall. The very last people to want more space, ergo
more stations, to be available are those current license holders. The
value of that piece of paper is inversely proportional to the number of
competitors.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:05:06 +0000 (UTC)
From: wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman)
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <h4l8ah$1nkf$1@grapevine.csail.mit.edu>
In article <h4kng4$pvj$1@reader1.panix.com>,
David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:
>Some fudged; I know WETA [RF-26] got RF-27 for DTV; I suspect they
>retuned, not replaced, that antenna.
WETA uses a Dielectric TUP-O4-12-2 antenna, a high-gain broadband UHF
panel antenna, which was installed a few years ago for the
transitional DTV facilities of WJLA and WUSA, at a different site from
the old channel 26 analog. So, no "retuning" required, or indeed
possible. (The old tower, if I remember correctly, was in Virginia;
the new tower is in far Northwest DC at the Maryland line.)
>I always figured the channel {interference} protection rules had to go
>back to Philo and DeForest; ISTM there were not just adjacent no-use
>areas, but also IF image ones, harmonics, images of harmonics, and you
>name it.
The rules have changed over time, and the FCC's approach to the rules
has also changed. The FCC no longer models TV facilities using fuzzy
photocopied charts derived from experiments done in the 1950s; now
everything is done using the Longley-Rice propagation model.
Furthermore, new TV allocations must follow a set of distance
constraints in addition to the contour-overlap constraints, of which
the most significant is the "donut hole" first-adjacent-channel taboo,
which requires adjacent channels to be either very close or very far
apart.
>No one has yet to offer a lucid explanation as to why their DTV coverage
>was so much poorer than predicted.
It seems widely agreed that the FCC's modeling did not accurately
reflect real-world coverage of VHF DTV operations. (The fact that
they assume everyone has an outdoor antenna ten meters off the ground
doesn't help.) VHF-low band, in particular, had its initial maximum
power rule very low, compared to VHF-high or UHF. There was also the
issue that converter boxes were not required to include FM traps to be
part of the coupon program, so people who bought them, live in markets
with DTV on VHF-low, and live near an FM station lost big time.
>increases [I am GLAD I was not working at the FCC Broadcast Bureau that
>week...]
It's the Media Bureau these days.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:46:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Neal McLain <nmclain@annsgarden.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <3fef94f5-1ec0-46d8-893a-058bfcb5c5e0@v15g2000prn.googlegroups.com>
On Jul 27, 9:43 am, Eric Tappert <e.tappert.spam...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:28:01 -0400 (EDT), Bill Horne
>
>
>
> <b...@horneQRM.net> wrote:
> >Garrett Wollman wrote:
>
> >> WPVI is still on channel 6.
>
> >I've been Googling the DTV transition assignments, and came up with this
> >document, entitled "DTV Tentative Channel Designations for the First and
> >Second Rounds":
>
> >http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1082A2.pdf
>
> >.... which says that WPVI was assigned UHF channel 46 for DTV
> >transmission. The document doesn't say what "first and second rounds"
> >are (or were), but since others have said WPVI is using VHF Channel 6
> >for DTV, I assume they were the transitional phases of the DTV switch,
> >during which WPVI simulcast it's programming to the DTV audience on
> >channel 46.
>
> >This thread has gotten me curious: does anyone have the URL for the list
> >of VHF channels that *were* retired/reassigned, and which ones are still
> > available or in use for television? Does it vary by area, or is it the
> >same throughout the U.S.?
>
> >I'd also like to have a list of stations which switched to UHF channels
> >for their final DTV assignment, and which ones remained on VHF (or moved
> >there after the changeover). Does anyone have a URL?
>
> >Bill Horne
>
> Bill,
>
> Try http://www.dtv.gov/stationlist.htm for a list of all DTV stations,
> their channel assignments and the cutover dates. It is organized by
> areas.
>
> Eric T.
>
> ***** Moderator's Note *****
>
> Thank you! That's perfect!
>
> Some questions, after a quick look:
>
> 1. Are the digital channel numbers the same as the old analog ones,
> i.e., does "Channel 12" occupy the same frequency range under the
> analog _and_ the digital assignments? I know that there are a lot
> of "Virtual" numbers that aren't actual frequency assignments, but
> the list shows some digital channels next to each other, such as
> channels 12 and 13 in Rhode Island, which used to be forbidden for
> analog stations.
>
> 2. There are a lot more digital stations on VHF than I had expected,
> since I had been under the impression that (one of) the
> justifications for DTV was to "re-farm" allocations for new
> services and public safety. Was there ever a fixed range of
> frequencies that were to be reused for non-tv services, or are new
> services expected to be frequency-agile and able to slip into
> "white space" between the new DTV stations?
>
> 3. If I wanted to help out all the little old ladies who still have
> rabit ears, could I rebroadcast the DTV stations onto analog
> channels? Are there still translators in existence that do that?
>
> Bill Horne
PS to my previous post ...
I suppose three stations could share one DTV channel ... FOX on 7.1,
ABC on 7.2, and NBC on 7.3 or something like that. Or, in view of the
fact that there are two affiliates in the DMA for each network, maybe
there's sufficient spacing to allow three Channel 7 transmitters to
operate simultaneously without co-channel interference.
Neal McLain
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:06:00 -0400
From: Eric Tappert <e.tappert.spamnot@worldnet.att.net>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <grtr651mem6pqjmjl4botdbe97b8mql1b3@4ax.com>
Bill et al.
Answers in-line.
E. T.
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:43:14 -0400 (EDT), Eric Tappert
<e.tappert.spamnot@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:28:01 -0400 (EDT), Bill Horne
><bill@horneQRM.net> wrote:
>
>>Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>
>>> WPVI is still on channel 6.
>>
>>I've been Googling the DTV transition assignments, and came up with this
>>document, entitled "DTV Tentative Channel Designations for the First and
>>Second Rounds":
>>
>>http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1082A2.pdf
>>
>>.... which says that WPVI was assigned UHF channel 46 for DTV
>>transmission. The document doesn't say what "first and second rounds"
>>are (or were), but since others have said WPVI is using VHF Channel 6
>>for DTV, I assume they were the transitional phases of the DTV switch,
>>during which WPVI simulcast it's programming to the DTV audience on
>>channel 46.
>>
>>This thread has gotten me curious: does anyone have the URL for the list
>>of VHF channels that *were* retired/reassigned, and which ones are still
>> available or in use for television? Does it vary by area, or is it the
>>same throughout the U.S.?
>>
>>I'd also like to have a list of stations which switched to UHF channels
>>for their final DTV assignment, and which ones remained on VHF (or moved
>>there after the changeover). Does anyone have a URL?
>>
>>Bill Horne
>
>
>Bill,
>
>Try http://www.dtv.gov/stationlist.htm for a list of all DTV stations,
>their channel assignments and the cutover dates. It is organized by
>areas.
>
>Eric T.
>
>***** Moderator's Note *****
>
>Thank you! That's perfect!
>
>Some questions, after a quick look:
>
>1. Are the digital channel numbers the same as the old analog ones,
> i.e., does "Channel 12" occupy the same frequency range under the
> analog _and_ the digital assignments? I know that there are a lot
> of "Virtual" numbers that aren't actual frequency assignments, but
> the list shows some digital channels next to each other, such as
> channels 12 and 13 in Rhode Island, which used to be forbidden for
> analog stations.
Yes and yes. Same channel frequency assignments, just a shuffle of
channels and a change of modulation... The virtual channels are just
to keep the TV station identity the same. The old channel 10 may now
be on a different frequency assignmentl, but your tuner can tune it by
being told it is "10.1" even though it is somewhere in the UHF band.
Also digital allows multiple subchannels. I get some channels with up
to 5 different programs in the same frequency band as one "channel".
Accordingly, you need 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, etc. to pick the right
bitstream. It really is kind of neat. I used to get 12 channels over
the air, now I get 31 (counting all the subchannels). Some old ones
no longer come through, but there were some new ones...
>
>2. There are a lot more digital stations on VHF than I had expected,
> since I had been under the impression that (one of) the
> justifications for DTV was to "re-farm" allocations for new
> services and public safety. Was there ever a fixed range of
> frequencies that were to be reused for non-tv services, or are new
> services expected to be frequency-agile and able to slip into
> "white space" between the new DTV stations?
Not knowing the inner thinking of the FCC, I can't answer this one...
I suspect that the channels that are freed up are being used for other
(non-TV) services that don't geographically extend beyond the old TV
channel range.
>
>3. If I wanted to help out all the little old ladies who still have
> rabit ears, could I rebroadcast the DTV stations onto analog
> channels? Are there still translators in existence that do that?
My understanding is that all full power stations are now digital and
the low power ones will have to convert in the next couple of years.
The rabbit ears will work (with a converter box for an analog TV) for
the VHF channels. There are "rabbit ear" type antennas for the UHF
channels, so the little old ladies just need a converter box (which
puts DTV channels on analog channel 3 or 4 on an RG-58 cable or an S
video output for newer sets) and an indoor antenna that covers both
the VHF (rabbit ears) and the UHF bands. Actually rebroadcasting over
the air requires a license and there will be no more analog TV
licenses in a couple of years.
>
>Bill Horne
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:10:30 EDT
From: Wesrock@aol.com
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <bbc.467cdd0a.379f0f56@aol.com>
In a message dated 7/27/2009 12:07:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
harold@hallikainen.com writes:
> None of the stations I worked with put their control on their program
> line. The program lines were generally driven with a WE 111C
> transformer to drop the 600 ohm source resistance (studio equipment)
> down to 150 ohms to drive the line. Another 111C converted it back to
> 600 ohms at the transmitter.
Just a matter of curiosity--what was the advantage of 150 ohm lines?
600 ohms was the standard for telco lines, including program grade
lines.
Wes Leatherock
wesrock@aol.com
wleathus@yahoo.com
***** Moderator's Note *****
I'm always tempted to answer these sorts of questions myself - I
worked on the "Radio" board, after all - but then I realize that a lot
of the things I "know" about program audio lines are just memories of
the way we did things, and I'm not sure of the technical basis.
Let's see: impedance varies with frequency, so (I'm guessing) I think
150 ohms is closer to the impedance at the upper frequencies, thus
giving a boost to the "high end" tones, and making equalization
easier. Come to think of it, that would be _part_ of the equalization,
wouldn't it?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:59:00 -0400
From: T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Skype apparently threatens Russian national security
Message-ID: <MPG.24d77caca064de21989b1e@news.eternal-september.org>
In article <h4fq3f$ndo$2@optima5.xanadu-bbs.net>, john@example.invalid
says...
>
> Thad Floryan wrote:
> > Just found this on Slashdot:
> >
> > http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/07/25/0015250/Skype-Apparently-Threatens-Russian-National-Security
> >
> > "Reuters reports that 'Russia's most powerful business lobby moved to clamp
> > down on Skype and its peers this week, telling lawmakers that the Internet
> > phone services are a threat to Russian businesses and to national security.'
> > The lobby, closely associated with Putin's political party, cites concerns of
> > 'a likely and uncontrolled fall in profits for the core telecom operators,' as
> > well as a fear that law enforcement agencies have thus far been unable to
> > listen in on Skype conversations due to its 256-bit encryption."
> >
>
>
> I betcha the CIA knows how to listen to Americans! ;-)
Not the CIA but the NSA.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:40:59 -0700
From: Thad Floryan <thad@thadlabs.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Skype apparently threatens Russian national security
Message-ID: <4A6DCA8B.20605@thadlabs.com>
On 7/27/2009 7:43 AM, T wrote:
> In article <h4fq3f$ndo$2@optima5.xanadu-bbs.net>, john@example.invalid
> says...
>> Thad Floryan wrote:
>>> Just found this on Slashdot:
>>>
>>> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/07/25/0015250/Skype-Apparently-Threatens-Russian-National-Security
>>>
>>> "Reuters reports that 'Russia's most powerful business lobby moved to clamp
>>> down on Skype and its peers this week, telling lawmakers that the Internet
>>> phone services are a threat to Russian businesses and to national security.'
>>> The lobby, closely associated with Putin's political party, cites concerns of
>>> 'a likely and uncontrolled fall in profits for the core telecom operators,' as
>>> well as a fear that law enforcement agencies have thus far been unable to
>>> listen in on Skype conversations due to its 256-bit encryption."
>>>
>>
>> I betcha the CIA knows how to listen to Americans! ;-)
>
> Not the CIA but the NSA.
Think "Echelon"; I'm not sure if the FBI's "Carnivore" is still in operation.
Russia's "SORM-IV" is allegedly equivalent to the NSA's Echelon.
For an eye-opening report of AT&T complicity with the NSA, one of the NSA
taps on the AT&T Internet backbone was accidentally discovered 7 years ago in
a facility in San Francisco and reported in this article from 2007:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/11/07/MNIST7NS9.DTL
Basically, the fiber runs have 2-way optical splitters: NSA gets everything.
Prior stories in the SF Chronicle stated every communication channel from
cellphone, radio, landline telephones, etc. is "received" by the NSA.
Claims made for the Echelon system boggle my mind, but knowing what I was doing
in the 1960s at the GTE Electronic Defense Labs (Mountain View CA), I cannot
dismiss those claims outright. I'm no longer in "that business" so I'm unaware
of what's really possible today and I cannot discuss what I did "back then".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:45:00 -0700
From: Thad Floryan <thad@thadlabs.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Skype apparently threatens Russian national security
Message-ID: <4A6E11CC.1030106@thadlabs.com>
On 7/27/2009 12:32 PM, Thad Floryan wrote:
> [...]
> Think "Echelon"; I'm not sure if the FBI's "Carnivore" is still in operation.
> Russia's "SORM-IV" is allegedly equivalent to the NSA's Echelon.
SORM has a dual meaning. SORM became Russian law in 1996 to monitor
ALL telecommunications (phones, FAX, etc.) within Russia. SORM-2, in
1998, added the Internet. An ex-Russian military officer at a client
site circa 2005 informed me SORM-IV was the hardware equivalent to the
NSA's Echelon and ostensibly operates also outside the confines of
Russia (as Echelon also (primarily?) operates outside the confines of
the USA).
Some background for Echelon, SORM, Carnivore, etc. can be read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance
New KGB Takes Internet by SORM
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2000/02/new-kgb-takes-internet-sorm
SORM - Russia's Big Brother
http://www.cvni.net/radio/nsnl/nsnl021/nsnl21sorm.html
Russian FAPSI wants lines to tap all (in English)
http://www.fitug.de/debate/9808/msg00265.html
SORM Acceptance Report (in English)
http://reseau.echelon.free.fr/reseau.echelon/sorm.htm
> [...]
> For an eye-opening report of AT&T complicity with the NSA, one of the NSA
> taps on the AT&T Internet backbone was accidentally discovered 7 years ago in
> a facility in San Francisco and reported in this article from 2007:
>
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/11/07/MNIST7NS9.DTL
>
> Basically, the fiber runs have 2-way optical splitters: NSA gets everything.
> [...]
Back to Echelon (which monitors phones, Internet, FAX, all radio
transmissions, and even has 100m (~300 foot) dishes in geosynchronous
Earth orbit (which I presume is the "Clarke Belt" that Bill, our
moderator references) to pick up some of the radio and microwave
traffic (in addition to what the NRO (National Reconnaissance Office
http://www.nro.gov/) does)), I found these article URLs in my
archives and they're all still active and good:
Privacy Concerns Grow Along With Electronic Communication
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/1999/09/08/ED77886.DTL
Europe Accuses U.S. Of Economic Spying
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/02/24/MN101995.DTL
Spy in the Gray Flannel Suit
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/02/25/ED48854.DTL
Pals shouldn't spy
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/e/a/2000/02/28/NEWS10843.dtl
France Opens Inquiry Into American Surveillance Network
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/07/05/MN54683.DTL
EU group denounces U.S. Spying
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/07/30/BU225644.DTL
Tech pros and cons revealed
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/09/17/BU96110.DTL
EU says 5 members' offices bugged
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/03/20/MN272782.DTL
Spying on U.N. chief provokes only yawns
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/04/04/MNG8S5VF1U1.DTL
A Sept. 10 State of Mind
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2006/01/11/cstillwell.DTL
"1984" took a bit longer to arrive than originally predicted. :-)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:03:03 -0400
From: T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Polling switches for record information - any guidance?
Message-ID: <MPG.24d77da6617159fd989b20@news.eternal-september.org>
In article <7c1bm.89518$qx1.59551@newsfe04.iad>, sam@coldmail.com
says...
> AFAIK, central office switches aren't allowed to touch the
> Internet. That may have changed in the past few years, but at the time
> I retired, access was limited to dedicated lines or X.25 PADS, neither
> of which could be reached from the net.
>
>
I think they do, or at least that is how Vonage does it.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:20:03 -0700
From: Thad Floryan <thad@thadlabs.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Cellphone tower coverage Qs
Message-ID: <4A6DC5A3.9000104@thadlabs.com>
Today's SF Chronicle COMPUTING column has some Q&As about cellphones
and this URL was mentioned: http://cellreception.com/
Curious, I wanted to see where the local cell towers were located for
my carrier (AT&T Mobility grandfathered all the way back to Cellular One).
I seldom have fewer than 4 (out of 5) bars on my phone's display, so I
figured there would be a hive of towers especially here, Silicon Valley.
Visiting this URL:
http://www.cellreception.com/towers/towers.php?city=los%20altos&state_abr=ca
and clicking "[*] AT&T", I wondered where the towers were and had to zoom
out to see a few.
There's a cluster of 3 flanking Moffett Federal Airfield about 3.5-4 miles
north from my home, another grouping of 5 about 8-9 miles east between Santa
Clara and San Jose, then two NW about 20-25 miles away in Burlingame. That's
it for the places I normally would be concerned about coverage.
This doesn't make any sense to me for two reasons:
1. I have excellent signal strength at my home, and
2. if I dial 911 (on the cellphone) from home I get the local city's 911
center, and if I dial 911 while driving along I-280 all the way up to
San Mateo (just south of Burlingame) I get the CHP 911 dispatch.
My two questions:
1. is that tower spacing "normal"? The "cellreception" site claims to have
all registered towers in its database of 135,800 towers last updated in
May 2009.
2. how/why would I get routed to CHP's 911 while on I-280 headed NW even
just a mile or two from home while I get routed to the local city's 911
if I call from home? [I'm not complaining because that's exactly what I
want to happen]
The reason I'm puzzled is that when the service was still Cellular One they
claimed a tower within 1/2 mile of my home and even assisted getting service
to function within the local food supermarket which had a metal roof and
zero reception. Later, as Cingular, again I was informed new towers were
being installed. To date since AT&T acquired the contract, I've received no
indication of new towers, only claims of "service improvements" -- given I
really have no quarrel with AT&T Mobility, I accept that claim.
Perhaps I should be asking: is there a better resource showing cellphone
coverage and/or tower locations by carrier?
I'm still scratching my head wondering how cellphone service works here at
all. :-)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <3380e1f6-b61f-4dde-9c24-653b4085ead1@k30g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>
On Jul 27, 1:29 am, Neal McLain <nmcl...@annsgarden.com> wrote:
> > Not according to the newspaper. Apparently, surprisingly many people
> > miss it and they're looking into bringing it back.
>
> Has the newspaper reported what WPVI's owners think about this?
They're considering it. I'll try to contact their P/R person to get
the latest.
> > 1) Before the digital switchover, TV stations were broadcasting in
> > _both_ digital and analog. They would have tests pre-cutover where
> > they'd tell viewers they were temporarily cutting off the analog
> > signal. If the viewer could continue receiving, the viewer was set
> > for digital, but if not, the viewer was not ready.
>
> The FCC assigned every full-power TV station a temporary digital channel
> for the transition. WPVI-DT was on channel 64 during the transition.
> When the transition period ended, each station could choose to remain on
> its temporary digital channel, or move back to its original analog
> channel. WPVI-DT's owners chose to move back to Channel 6.
http://www.water-damage.org/tag/wpvi-dt-reception/
Thank you for the explanation which helps. Since the space is in use
the issue is moot.
I thought the TV digital transition was to make better use of the
bandwidth and make space available for other things, like public
safety. That is, the new digital bandwidth would be narrower (use
less room) than the old analog bandwidth thanks to the greater
efficiency of digital transmission, and, be assigned to a different
place on the spectrum. That is, the definition of a TV "channel"
would be _entirely_ new. We'd get more 'information' (sharper
pictures and better sound) yet use a smaller 'pipe'.
Was the primary purpose of going to digital TV to save bandwidth or to
simply give prettier TV pictures?
> > Frankly, I was troubled by the bureaucratic stance; I was hoping
> > someone would take a consumer or public service stance. That is,
> > instead of coming up with all sorts of _legal_ reasons why it
> > couldn't be done, come up with a reason how it _could_ be done.
>
> It can be done, but in the FM band, not outside the FM band. As I've
> noted before, any television station licensee is free to apply for an FM
> broadcast license in the FM band.
I presume a TV broadcaster could get an AM license as well for the
audio.
The technical siutation--reuse of the same frequency--makes the whole
issue _moot_. But if the frequency space _had_ been available, to me
the real issue was grandfathering. As technology changes, we allow
for many things to be 'grandfathered' in. I simply thought if a
station had been audible for at least the last 45 years it ought to
continue and not suddenly become a huge legal issue.
For example, in communities that are at a LATA boundary, including
state lines, many retain local phone call priviledges across the
boundary, even though technically it's inter-LATA and thus a full
"long distance" call.
***** Moderator's Note *****
The most important issue, assuming the channel was still available for
analog assignments, is that the old analog stations used only 25
Kilohertz deviation on their FM aural carriers, and that meant that
they could never match the noise margins of regular FM stations and
could never transmit stereo.
Expecting FM broadcast quality audio from a TV audio signal is like
trying to record a song by holding a cassette recorder up to a
radio. Sooner or later, those who attempt it have to admit that it's
not a productive approach.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:08:49 +0000 (UTC)
From: wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman)
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <h4l8hh$1nkf$2@grapevine.csail.mit.edu>
In article <3380e1f6-b61f-4dde-9c24-653b4085ead1@k30g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>I thought the TV digital transition was to make better use of the
>bandwidth and make space available for other things, like public
>safety. That is, the new digital bandwidth would be narrower (use
>less room) than the old analog bandwidth thanks to the greater
>efficiency of digital transmission, and, be assigned to a different
>place on the spectrum. That is, the definition of a TV "channel"
>would be _entirely_ new. We'd get more 'information' (sharper
>pictures and better sound) yet use a smaller 'pipe'.
No. The channels are the same width (this is set by international
treaty and so can't be modified easily or unilaterally). There are
simply fewer channels allocated to television, because the transition
means that older tuners, which would have problems with more
closely-spaced stations, are no longer relevant for planning purposes.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:45:01 +0000 (UTC)
From: David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <h4ki1t$d3e$1@reader1.panix.com>
"harold@hallikainen.com" <harold@hallikainen.com> writes:
> Control was generally on another pair (or two). The first system I
> worked with was a Gates RDC-10. It used different voltages and
> polarities on each wire of the pair to ground.
Twentyfive years ago, when I had a dozen+ LMC's for pipeline control;
we were getting told by Ma that She would not give us an new inter-CO
metallic circuits [i.e. DC connectivity], and the ones we had were
subject to shutdown any time. Further, no guarantee as to how long
intra-CO metallic ones would be available.
This was because inter-CO copper was being retired in favor of T
Carrier. I'd assume N-Carrier [an analog mux scheme noted for causing
global warming due to its array of vacuum tubes...] was also being
scrapped but that's not germane here.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
***** Moderator's Note *****
The push to install T-Carrier had an unintended consequence: many
local municipalities were using "dry" pairs to interconnect parts of
McCulloch-loop alarm systems, mostly used by burglar alarm systems,
but sometimes even for fire alarms. The McCulloch Loops were set up
like the original telegraph circuits, with negative voltage feeding
one side of the loop, and positive feeding the other, so that if any
part of the loop went open, the stations on either side of the break
could still signal using ground return. Most municipal fire alarm
systems that use Gamewell boxes still operate this way.
When told they would have to switch to tone or data-based alarms, the
municipal managers screemed so loudly that Ma Bell bid a hasty
retreat, and ordered D-4 boards which could repeat McCulloch Loop
signalling. The towns and hamlets got to keep their investments in
McCulloch Loop equipment going, and Ma Bell got to put the trunk pairs
to better use.
That compromise would normally be called a "Win-Win" scenario, but
T-Carriers turned out to be much less fault-tolerant than DC circuits
on dry pairs, because, as I said, the McCulloch Loop devices could
still signal with one side of the circuit open. With early T-Carrier
spans suffering high failure rates, some mayors and city managers went
to the PUC in their states and demanded that they be given access to
dry pairs again. AFAIK, such requests were granted on an "As
available" basis, but ONLY to government agencies, not to commercial
BA providers such are Atlas, Wells Fargo, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:30:22 +0000 (UTC)
From: wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman)
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <h4kkmu$1h7m$1@grapevine.csail.mit.edu>
In article <4A6D39D7.8080005@annsgarden.com>,
Neal McLain <nmclain@annsgarden.com> wrote:
>The FCC assigned every full-power TV station a temporary digital channel
>for the transition. WPVI-DT was on channel 64 during the transition.
>When the transition period ended, each station could choose to remain on
>its temporary digital channel, or move back to its original analog
>channel. WPVI-DT's owners chose to move back to Channel 6.
Actually, they weren't given a choice. Channels 52 and above are no
longer assigned to the broadcast television service.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:28:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: What is this device called
Message-ID: <fb0be663-9f2f-4aef-8749-56c2648205f1@y19g2000yqy.googlegroups.com>
> ***** Moderator's Note *****
>
> There have been books written about the hidebound management at Ma
> Bell, and about the arrogant and intractible attitudes exhibited by
> many of her employees. I went through the same frustration you
> experienced when I ordered an interface for a phone patch - and _I_
> was working at New England Telephone!
I'm sorry Mr. Atkinson had trouble, but back then our experience was
totally the opposite. We obtained such devices for computer terminals
without any trouble. We abandoned the more expensive Bell-leased
Teletypes (the kind with the ORG button and built-in automatic modem)
for cheaper terminals and modems, and even though Bell would lose
revenue, they fully accomodated our needs.
To be fair, we must remember there are also books written about how
some pre-divesture customers and businesses tried to get a free ride
in blatant violation of the tarriffs in existent in those days, as
well as how the pre-divesture Bell System bent over backwards to
accomodate customer service needs.
In those days, the Bell System was forced to waste its money servicing
repair calls that were the result of bad customer owned equipment,
such as improperly wired bootleg extension sets or unauthorized
modifications to a business key system. Nobody talks about that side
of the issue. Contrary to myth, they did not disconnect the
subscriber's service or rein the wrath of the heavens upon the hapless
subscriber as critics complained, but merely disconnected the
offending device. Even when using their own personally-owned device,
customers still expected the Bell System to provide end-to-end
responsibility for calls (unlike today).
Good public policy does NOT result from anti-utility attitudes that
favor cream-skimming. In pre-divesture days people demanded both rock-
bottom rates AND super high levels of service. That is, they expected
actual-cost rates on busy corridors like Chicago to St. Louis, but
also expected cross-subsidized rates on light volume and expensive
corridors such as in the west.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:52:19 -0700
From: Richard <rng@richbonnie.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Walter's Telephones
Message-ID: <t24s65hp17r3vou90lovurkdb7cptu0mlr@4ax.com>
On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:37:41 -0400 (EDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>***** Moderator's Note *****
>
>The FCC won't allow the audio to stay on 87.75 because the entire
>range from 54 to 88 MHz (The old channels 2 through 6) is being
>reassigned to other services.
Not true. The only TV spectrum auctioned off was the upper UHF
channels from channels 52 theough 69. A few Digital TV stations still
are trnsmitting in the low VHF band (channels 2 through 6). See
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.pdf
A sampling of channels on low VHF:
Chan City
5 Anchorage, AK
3 Bethel, AK
6 New Haven, CT
3 Key West, FL
6 Pelham, GA
6 Wrens, GA
2 Las Vegas, NV
These channels are digital, so an FM radio in, for examle, New Haven,
CT tuned to 87.7 will only get noise.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:36:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "www.Queensbridge.us" <NOTvalid@Queensbridge.us>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Cellphone savings worth research
Message-ID: <d1492ff8-2f33-4f62-9348-27eaf5eb8e27@v20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
On Jul 16, 8:08 am, Zee <zza...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 15, 8:15 am, "www.Queensbridge.us" <NOTva...@Queensbridge.us>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 13, 8:59 am, Monty Solomon <mo...@roscom.com> wrote:
>
> > > SPENDING SMART
> > > Cellphone savings worth research
> > > Competition for wireless customers leads to a bewildering array of
> > > options - and a price war
>
> > > By Todd Wallack, Globe Staff | July 12, 2009
> > > The Boston Globe
>
> > > When we looked into switching cellphone companies recently, we were
> > > soon drowning in options.
>
> > > T-Mobile USA alone offers more than 40 individual and family plans.
> > > Verizon Wireless, AT&T, and Sprint Nextel offer dozens more. And then
> > > there's a pack of upstarts offering prepaid service, including Boost
> > > Mobile (a unit of Sprint Nextel that uses Nextel's network), Virgin
> > > Mobile USA (which uses Sprint's network), and MetroPCS (which has its
> > > own network in Boston and some other cities.)
>
> > > The great news is that all this competition has sparked a price war
> > > of sorts. Boost Mobile recently made a splash by offering unlimited
> > > calls and text messages for $50 per month - half the price of
> > > traditional plans with unlimited minutes. Virgin Mobile countered by
> > > offering unlimited calls for $50 (or $60 if you add in text
> > > messages). Now some say their plans are even cheaper. MetroPCS
> > > charges $40-$50 for unlimited calls and text. And TracFone just
> > > launched its own $45 option called StraightTalk.
>
> > > ...
>
> > >http://www.boston.com/business/personalfinance/articles/2009/07/12/ce...
>
> > Story mention:
> > "For instance, we found a T-Mobile prepaid plan that allowed us to buy
> > a block of 1,000 minutes good for a year for $100, which works out to
> > less than $9 per month, less than one-third of the cost of the
> > cheapest traditional monthly plans."
>
> > I pay $15.00 every three months on Virgin.
> > That averages to $5.00 per month.
>
> > Here is how it is done:
> > Go towww.virginmobileusa.comCheckout Virgin Mobile phones and
> > plans. Buy one of their phones and activate it.
>
> > While activating it look at the selection where you will make a top-
> > up of $20.00 every three 90 days
> > BUT while in that area of the site you pick AUTOMATIC top-up of $15.00
> > every 90 days linked to either:
> > PayPal
> > Credit Card or
> > Debit Card
>
> > Want a one-time savings of even more? If you enter Kickbacks Code
> > number: yQqUHOsQ when signing up we EACH get get 60 minutes of bonus
> > airtime after you add money to your account.
> > http://www.virginmobileusa.com
-
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I use T-mobile pay as you go
>
> http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/plans/prepaid-plans.aspx
>
> My $100 refill valid for 1 year gives me 1000 minutes plus 150 bonus
> minutes. I only use it for emergency or if I don't have any other
> options. For my regular long distance calls, I use Onesuite prepaid
> long distance card and some times its VoIP service.
I have been a happy OneSuite customer for several years, BUT recently
have been making as many calls from home using GoogleVoice for
free. My phone book book of frequent contacts is on my computer's
googleVoice interface. Only works for free intra-USA.
If I am not at my computer but at home I still use OneSuite for almost
all of my calls, even to other a few blocks away. Verizon charges me
11¢ to connect a local call. I can talk forever. OneSuite charges me
2.9¢ CPM thru their toll free number. So this is cheaper then VZ for
very short calls. Works as prepaid phone card. PIN not needed for
calls from home or cell phone. Use Promotion/SuiteTreat Code:
"FREEoffer23" for FREE time. Works FROM many other countries. Compare
the rates at https://www.OneSuite.com No monthly fee or minimum.
------------------------------
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