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Message Digest
Volume 28 : Issue 84 : "text" Format
Messages in this Issue:
Re: Western Union public fax services, 1960
Re: Western Union public fax services, 1960
Re: Western Union public fax services, 1960
Re: Joint utility poles
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:26:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Western Union public fax services, 1960
Message-ID: <36ac8f58-3132-47d9-8ad1-d0004121b672@z15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
On Mar 23, 12:58 pm, John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> wrote:
> When long distance rates dropped below telegram
> rates and residential phones became cheap enough that everyone had
> them, WU was doomed.
Western Union recognized in the 1950s that the individual telegram was
doomed per above and working hard to develop alternative services.
One area was private networks for industry and the government.
Another was new services such as the fax we're discussing.
WU also tried its hand a private line voice services in the 1960s. As
best as I can tell, that didn't have many customers. I have no idea
of the pricing (I'd love to know WU's charges relative to AT&T's
charges at the same time for the same service.). Also, I suspect the
availability of service was limited to major cities, so if you wanted
a voice line to Cedar Rapids, Iowa, you were out of luck.
Also, I suspect the service was limited to a few telephone sets. That
is, a businessman might have a WU phone on his desk. If he happened
to be away from his desk, he'd have to be located throughout the plant
and brought back to his office to take a call (or make a call for that
matter). That's inconvenient.
A Bell private line would terminate on the company switchboard and be
routable. (Certain FX lines used special heavy cords for higher
voltages and would only connect to certain extensions).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:54:24 +0000 (UTC)
From: ranck@vt.edu
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Western Union public fax services, 1960
Message-ID: <gqdd2g$pj6$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> Just a side note...while UPS (United Parcel Service) had a large
> market share in parcel shipping, it was never a monopoly. At one time
> many people shipped their parcels via the US Post Office, and some
> still do ("parcel post"). Unfortunately, the quality of the Post
> Office service on parcels declined.
It might surprise you to know that the US Post Office has gotten
pretty darn good in recent years. My wife uses them for shipping
pretty much exclusively. For a less than 2 lb. box of chocolates
to arrive in a couple of days USPS beats UPS/FedEx/etc. on price
and they haven't lost or damaged one yet. Of course, that's just
one sample.
Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:11:33 -0600
From: Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Western Union public fax services, 1960
Message-ID: <lrWdnS693-gw-FfUnZ2dnUVZ_hiWnZ2d@posted.visi>
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> Just a side note...while UPS (United Parcel Service) had a large
> market share in parcel shipping, it was never a monopoly. At one time
> many people shipped their parcels via the US Post Office, and some
> still do ("parcel post"). Unfortunately, the quality of the Post
> Office service on parcels declined.
>
I can't speak to parcel post (which now seems to cost about 75% the
cost of priority mail), but in some circles (e.g. people who ship
accordions, which are fairly heavy and extremely complex instruments
that are very susceptible to shipping damage) priority mail is the way
to go. I don't know if the USPS has less automated mangling, fewer
baggage handlers competing in the carton hurl olympics, or what, but
the other services are far more likely to damage the shipment (even if
it is well packed). And it's half the price of UPS for the same
delivery time (priority mail vs. UPS 2nd day), a third the price of
Fedex (and USPO counts Sat. as a "day", while UPS and Fedex don't).
And the postal guys are reliable about signatures, too.
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:10:59 -0600
From: Neal McLain <nmclain@annsgarden.com>
To: redacted@invalid.telecom.csail.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Joint utility poles
Message-ID: <49CA65A3.2000502@annsgarden.com>
Robert Bonomi wrote:
> If a joint pole includes power, there is almost invariably a _ground_
> wire at the very top of things. I shouldn't need to explain why.
In my experience (also in the USA), the opposite is true. High-voltage
transmission and subtransmission lines are indeed protected by a
grounded static wire above power conductors. But distribution lines are
rarely fitted with static wires.
Of course, the MGN (multi-grounded neutral) forms a continuous ground
along the line. But the MGN is usually located below power conductors.
See "Joint Pole" in any recent edition of Newton's Telecom Dictionary.
An expended version of the same definition is at
http://www.annsgarden.com/poles/poles.htm
> In the U.S. (at least, that's the geography of my professional
> knowledge, though the logic would seem to be applicable 'anywhere')
> power is also almost invariably (I don't know of even a single
> exception, but acknowledge that they may exist :) in the topmost
> position, for a couple of solid engineering reasons:
> 1) safety -- nobody has to go past the power to get to any other
> service.
> 2) pole-space efficiency -- power requires more physical separation
> from other services than anything else on the pole. By putting it 'on
> top' you only have one separation interval (below the power) of
> 'unusable' space.
Telcos usually require 12-inch separation between their facilities and
any other facilities on the same pole.
> After that, it tends to be -- in "descending" order -- a simple
> matter of the order in which pole space was rented.
Every pole attachment agreement I've ever seen specifies that CATV must
be placed at least 12 inches *above* telephone cables. And since telcos
were usually there first, they have the right to dictate the terms to
the CATV companies.
The 12" clearance requirement provides both companies space for the
lasher -- the device that spins the lashing wire around the strand and
the signal-conducting cables. See
http://www.annsgarden.com/poles/poles.htm#strand
> AND, there's a third, 'practical', reason why power is on top -- it
> is usually the power utility who puts the poles in, in the first
> place. There is almost never a need for multiple services until power
> is there...
Not necessarily. Even in urban areas, telcos often set their own poles
in places where no power pole exists. As you note, many of them are
small short poles ("toothpick poles"). But at least as many are
designed for joint use even if the immediate need is for telco only.
I've often seen telco-only poles with 10 or 15 feet of unused space
sticking up above telco for future power use. (Good thing, too: those
poles provide space for CATV 12" above telco, and still leave space for
power in the future.)
> It is *VERY* rare to see power piggy-backed onto phone company poles
> -- in part for the first two reasons mentioned above, and because
> power distribution requires considerably sturdier footing than just
> phone does.
Wes Leatherock <wleathus@yahoo.com> responded to that comment:
> This is simply not correct. The agreements between power companies
> and telephone companies provide that each company pays rent for using
> the other's poles. In practical terms, they try to keep the ownership
> about equal - half telco, half power company to simplify bookkeeping
> by, as near as possible, cancelling out rental payments to one or the
> other. In some cases this will mean the telco may own a pole used
> only by the power company, or the power company owns a pole used only
> by the telco.
Depends on the local situation.
In the case of investor-owned (for-profit) utilities, Wes's statement in
generally correct: power and telco strive for 50-50 ownership. And, as
Wes notes, there are situations where telco owns a pole used only by the
power company, and where power owns a pole used only by the telco.
But there are exceptions even to that. When I was working in cable TV
in Madison, Wisconsin, we were never quite sure who owned which pole:
some were 100% Madison Gas & Electric; some were 100% Wisconsin
Telephone; some were 50-50; still others were odd combinations like
60-40. Fortunately, it didn't make much difference to us: we just
submitted all pole applications to both companies and let them sort it out.
WisTel's pole records were maintained in a central computer database at
their headquarters in Milwaukee. MGE's pole records were hand-written
in a 3-ring notebook. Guess which one was more accurate.
In the case of municipal utilities, most joint poles are owned by the
utility; i.e., the municipal government. When the city owns the power
distribution wiring, the poles that support it, and the underlying land,
it can pretty much dictate the terms to everybody else.
Robert continued:
> More separate [power] strands (especially with multiple branches on a
> common feeder section) translates to greater wind/ice/snow loading
> which means increased lateral stresses as well as the added weight;
> then there is the weight of the transformer well.
True. However, telco cables can be pretty heavy too; I've seen
multipair cables almost two inches diameter. In order to prevent sag,
strands supporting big cables like this have to be placed under high
tensions, often several hundred pounds. Further complicating the
situation, some polelines carry two or more telco cables. An extreme
example: http://www.annsgarden.com/poles/JP0-Mass0.jpg
Similarly, a bundle of CATV cables can be as much as 2 or 3 inches in
diameter. CATV cables are lighter than telco cables, but their
supporting strands still have to be tensioned to prevent sag.
Add three inches of radial ice and a 100-mph wind, and communications
cables can put a huge lateral force on a poleline.
Neal McLain
------------------------------
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