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Message Digest Volume 29 : Issue 79 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Re: Waiting for Verizon.. I Need to Vent. Hello, Facebook. Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Re: Power outages and batteries Re: Waiting for Verizon Enforcing state telecom law Walmart changing phone system after abuse Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Phones in prisons Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Re: Walmart changing phone system after abuse Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Re: Waiting for Verizon Re: Walmart changing phone system after abuse Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Re: Waiting for Verizon.. ====== 28 years of TELECOM Digest -- Founded August 21, 1981 ====== Telecom and VOIP (Voice over Internet Protocol) Digest for the Internet. All contents here are copyrighted by Patrick Townson and the individual writers/correspondents. Articles may be used in other journals or newsgroups, provided the writer's name and the Digest are included in the fair use quote. By using -any name or email address- included herein for -any- reason other than responding to an article herein, you agree to pay a hundred dollars to the recipients of the email. =========================== Addresses herein are not to be added to any mailing list, nor to be sold or given away without explicit written consent. Chain letters, viruses, porn, spam, and miscellaneous junk are definitely unwelcome. We must fight spam for the same reason we fight crime: not because we are naive enough to believe that we will ever stamp it out, but because we do not want the kind of world that results when no one stands against crime. Geoffrey Welsh =========================== See the bottom of this issue for subscription and archive details and the name of our lawyer, and other stuff of interest. Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:46:33 -0700 From: Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Message-ID: <u%Mon.261188$OX4.139528@newsfe25.iad> Steven wrote: > Thad Floryan wrote: > >> Mississippi HB-872 was signed into law Monday by Mississippi >> Governor Haley Barbour and makes Caller ID spoofing illegal: >> >> http://www.wdam.com/Global/story.asp?S=12154048 >> >> The law covers alterations to the caller's name, telephone >> number, or name and telephone number that is shown to a >> recipient of a call or otherwise presented to the network. >> The law applies to PSTN, wireless and VoIP calls. Penalties >> for each violation can be up to $1,000 and one year in jail. >> Blocking of caller identification information is still >> permitted. >> > And how are they going to enforce their state law from someone spoofing > who is in India or China? > Is there an SS7 compatible data channel between India or China to the U.S. that can carry the CPIN message? Second question: Do the U.S. gateway switches send the CPIN message to foreign countries (other than Canada, which is not really foreign from a telephony standpoint)? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:25:33 -0700 (PDT) From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <f63ffbda-6f4f-4dae-9def-516cd8117b3f@o30g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> On Mar 17, 8:02 pm, Wesr...@aol.com wrote: > As I recall, a foreman from Oklahoma City spent almost a year in the > Bedford-Stuyvesant (sp) area of Brooklyn supervising the rebuilding of > outside plant, including drops.  He had an armed guard assigned to him > because the area was so dangerous. Unfortunately that was true for several places in NYC and other urban areas. Also, they needed to protect the late night operators coming in at midnight, still had quite a few in the 1970s. The trucks of repairmen and installers would get broken into and stuff stolen. Those guards and vandalism added to the cost of telephone service, which was a shame since it was such a waste. To this day many payphones in NYC have extra heavy cash vaults. Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:11:44 -0400 From: Monty Solomon <monty@roscom.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: I Need to Vent. Hello, Facebook. Message-ID: <p062408a4c7c8b7c784c5@[10.0.1.4]> I Need to Vent. Hello, Facebook. By DOUGLAS QUENQUA March 17, 2010 WHAT is the sound of an awkward silence on Facebook? If you have to ask, then you probably don't have friends like James Gower and Ashley Andrews, high school sweethearts from Spring, Tex., who are both 22 and engaged to be married this May. Mr. Gower, a master of the passive-aggressive status update, lobbed this one in January: "How is it my birthday is only one day, but my woman's last a whole damn week?" Ms. Andrews, seemingly not one to watch a ball go by, took a full swing with this comment: "GET OVER IT!!! UGH!!!!!!" Mr. Gower replied by calling his fiancée a name that can't be printed here, until the exchange became the social networking equivalent of shattered china at a dinner party. Eventually, Skyler Hurt, 22, a friend and a bridesmaid, intervened: "Hey, you guys know we can still see this right ...?" It's a question being asked a lot these days as couples, who once had to leave the house to fight in public, take their arguments onto Facebook. Whether through nagging wall posts or antagonistic changes to their "relationship status," the social networking site is proving to be as good for broadcasting marital discord as it is for sharing vacation photos. At 400 million members and growing, Facebook might just replace restaurants as the go-to place for couples to cause a scene. As score-settling on Facebook has grown commonplace, sites like Lamebook have begun documenting the worst spats (which also happen to be the most humorous). On Facebook itself, people can join several groups with names like "I Dislike People/Couples Who Argue Publicly on Facebook." For most couples, the temptation to publicly slander each other is overpowered by the instinct to prove to their friends how happy they are, reality notwithstanding. But for others, arguing in front of others comes as naturally as slamming doors. While a hot temper (or two) is often to blame, there are people, like Mr. Gower, who view Facebook as an opportunity: How better to show everyone what his future wife puts him through? ... http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/18/fashion/18facebook.html Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:25:38 -0700 (PDT) From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <b39f1d44-f816-435b-be96-de7bddf04789@g19g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> On Mar 17, 6:51 pm, David Clayton <dcs...@myrealbox.com> wrote: > > Sometimes I wonder if service problems today are a legacy from sloppy or > > rushed cable work done back in the 1970s.  Perhaps splices and building > > distribution panels (say the panel in the basement of a large old apt > > building) were adequate for voice grade communications but don't hold up > > well for DSL.  I also wonder if some of the old wiring in apt and office > > buildings may not be well maintained, but I'm just speculating. > > Isn't that sort of statement just an acknowledgement that telephony > cabling and infrastructure has a "use by" date? No, not at all. For one thing, service conditions varied in different places. I suspect large biulding basement distribution panels were generally 'cleaner' in certain cities than in others due to the various issues outlined about the service crisis. A phone co that hired unskilled labor and then places them under time pressure will not get the same quality of work as a phone co that has good people and enough time to do the job right. The old Bell System had numerous service quality indexes and these varied quite a bit from place to place. Another issue is physical wear and tear on the cable plant. Certain environments were more conducive to insulation decay than others. For instance, the overloaded MDF jumper racks in NYC. A poorly maintained building with a filthy basement will have more of a chance of dirt, dust, mold, and bugs to get into key system relays and building wiring. A phone co under pressure might not maintain its cable plant as well as a healthy phone co. Another reason is economic. Everything needs periodic maintenance. A particular item is often replaced when it is no longer economically viable to keep maintaining it, that is, when repairs would cost more than buying something new. The phoneco does replace distribution cable after so many years. I believe the cable on our block was replaced after about 30 years. The electric cables were replaced, too. I don't know how long copper in underground conduits last (actually, it's not the copper but the insulation). Complicating the issue of inside wiring is the ownership and responsibility in large buildings. In the old days it was the phone company all the way to the telephone set. Today it's not so clear. The demarcation line for apartment buildings is not necessarily the same as a single family house, for one thing, there may not be any modern demarc box, just the old original distribution mounts. > Why is there an expectation will still be up to the job of > satisfying the demands of this era? Why is there an expectation that infrastructure that has its technical origins back in the early 20th century is automatically obsolete and in need of replacement? What do we mean by "technical origins"? Do we mean specifically a 202 telephone set built in 1930? Or, do we mean a carbon based transmitter and classic speaker, such as a "G" handset and 2500 set? Certainly a 202 set should be replaced as significantly superior components are available--the sound quality is much better. Also, Touch Tone is virtually necessary today. However, there is no need to replace a working 30 year old 2500 set that uses a G handset used for POTS. That phone is ancient technology--functionally, the transmission is basically from 1938 and the tone pad from 1962. Does not matter. A new phone would not work significantly better, or even noticeably better. Indeed, the user may prefer the variable adjustable real ringer as opposed to the harsh modern tone ringer. > I think that people have been more than well-served by this sort of > infrastructure over the years it has existed, but there must come a time > when it is acknowledged that total replacement is necessary and that such > a thing will cost money. It's certainly not gonna be my money if it does what I want it to do. I have a collection of phonograph records, audio casette tapes, and VHS video tapes. They are all technologically obsolete. For that reason alone, should I go out and spend $$$$ to get it all on CDs or whatever the latest format is? Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:09:17 -0500 From: pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <cMednUftDtAgMj7WnZ2dnUVZ_oEAAAAA@supernews.com> pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) writes: > Someone please help out an old CO Tech, and tell me what a "vrad" is > and what "uverse" is. Please. A VRAD is an outside plant item that is used to operate the fiber part of AT&T's new broadband offering, which is called uverse. * -- * PV Something like badgers, something like lizards, and something like corkscrews. Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:06:48 -0500 From: pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <cMednUTtDtC1Mj7WnZ2dnUVZ_oGdnZ2d@supernews.com> Telecom Digest Moderator wrote: > However, this brings up a good question: are car batteries suitable > for use in any backup service? Despite their shortcomings, their > price/performance ratio might justify the compromises. Not really, no. They are designed for a quick jolt of huge current and then lots of quiet time. It's like using a sprinter for a marathon. For recovery purposes, you use deep cycle batteries. * -- * PV Something like badgers, something like lizards, and something like corkscrews. ***** Moderator's Note ***** I understand what you've written, but that's not the question I need an answer to. Given the price/performance ratio of a car battery, are there ANY backup applications it's suited for? Think about it: I can buy them on any streetcorner in the world, they have recharging stations as close as the nearest working automobile, and they're as rugged as any battery gets. What's the amp-hour capacity of a typical car battery? May I assume that I can draw that capacitiy for that many hours from a new auto battery? Can I draw 1/10 that capacity for 10 times more hours? Bill Horne Moderator Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:02:31 +1100 From: David Clayton <dcstar@myrealbox.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Message-ID: <pan.2010.03.19.04.02.27.685564@myrealbox.com> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:52:00 -0500, John Mayson wrote: > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Steven <diespammers@killspammers.com> > wrote: > >> And how are they going to enforce their state law from someone spoofing >> who is in India or China? > > Simple. They aren't. This is yet another example of a useless piece of > legislation pushed through because the people demand they "do something". > I wonder how many in the state capitol even understood the technology they > were attempting to regulate? Will spoofed SS7 attributes like that cross country phone network boundaries? I can quite understand CID inside a network with some controlled boundaries, but international as well? -- Regards, David. David Clayton Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Knowledge is a measure of how many answers you have, intelligence is a measure of how many questions you have. Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:22:53 -0700 (PDT) From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Message-ID: <0126c49d-8258-44b8-893f-9fcdf4e0f039@19g2000yqu.googlegroups.com> On Mar 18, 9:52 pm, John Mayson <j...@mayson.us> wrote: > > And how are they going to enforce their state law from someone > > spoofing who is in India or China? > > Simple. They aren't. This is yet another example of a useless piece of > legislation pushed through because the people demand they "do > something". I wonder how many in the state capitol even understood the > technology they were attempting to regulate? While it is true that that the efforts of a single state won't help that much, it is an important first step. Hopefully other states and the FCC or Congress will follow suit. As to the technology, I'm no expert, but it seems to me if that switches can support things like number portability they can accomodate this requirement without much trouble or cost. Also, as others have noted here, calls reach central office switches from sources never expected, so there aren't the kinds of controls or edits that their should be. As an aside, I get calls from phones served by various PBXs. The number that shows up is the outgoing trunk the PBX happened to select, not the main number of the PBX nor the extension. I have no problem with that. Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:25:55 -0700 From: AES <siegman@stanford.edu> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Power outages and batteries Message-ID: <siegman-A2ED62.21255518032010@sciid-srv02.med.tufts.edu> In article <siegman-8403E3.08390818032010@sciid-srv02.med.tufts.edu>, AES <siegman@stanford.edu> wrote: > I have 10 kW of commercially installed photovoltaic panels on the roof > of my house . . . . > > ***** Moderator's Note ***** > > The only solar installation I've seen in person was a "standalone" > design, with the arrays used to charge batteries that handle the house > load at night or during cloudy days. The family has a generator to use > when the batteries get too low, since they're too far from the pole > line to have any outside feed. If you'd like a look at the system referred to above (which was installed in Oct 2008), and some related information: http://www.stanford.edu/~siegman/jsb_solar_system.pdf [1.3 MB] [prepared for a local meeting on residential solar power] Nothing particularly special about this system, except it's a bit larger than the average residential installation, for reasons explained in the original post and this online document. [Re the final slide: The two outer cars are our family jalopies; the middle one belonged to one of our tenants at the time. The difference in retail cost between the latter one and the former two would fully pay for the system.] Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:44:05 -0400 From: "Michael D. Sullivan" <mds@camsul.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon Message-ID: <a76e5e941003191244j3ecf9cc6w479db58ca9a5f31c@mail.gmail.com> In Message-ID <9131e.79352b52.38d42256@aol.com>, Wes Leatherock asks: > Does the Empire City Subway Company still exist?' Yes it does. As I'm sure you know, it was a subsidiary of Western Union that owned conduits below the streets of New York. It was later bought by MCI, which is now merged into Verizon. The company itself still exists. Its website is http://www.empirecitysubway.com/, and the site says: Empire City Subway Company (ECS) is a wholly owned subsidiary of Verizon that specializes in subsurface engineering and construction services. Since 1891, ECS has held a franchise from the City of New York to build and maintain a conduit and manhole infrastructure in Manhattan and the Bronx. ECS rents this space to telecommunications and cable television service providers ECS also provides a broad array of services to facilitate the installation, maintenance and protection of underground cables in the greater metropolitan New York City area. -- Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:25:29 -0400 From: Randall Webmail <rvh40.remove-this@and-this-too.insightbb.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Enforcing state telecom law Message-ID: <fc6e97636a2d.4ba39769@insightbb.com> From: John Mayson <john@mayson.us> >On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Steven <diespammers@killspammers.com> wrote: >> And how are they going to enforce their state law from someone >> spoofing who is in India or China? > Simple. They aren't. This is yet another example of a useless piece > of legislation pushed through because the people demand they "do > something". I wonder how many in the state capitol even understood > the technology they were attempting to regulate? They are not going to be able to incarcerate anyone for violating this law, but if someone wants to go to the trouble (and expense) of pushing things on behalf of the recipients, the violation of the law, if proved, could also be used as part of a civil suit against the malefactors, who will have to provide a means for the recipient to contact the callers. Mississippi is a class-action defendant's nightmare; those juries love to give away other people's money. Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:49:58 -0700 (PDT) From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Walmart changing phone system after abuse Message-ID: <b84507a8-c487-4a83-ac81-7b2b2af191fc@g26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com> For decades, many businesses have had public address systems integrated with their telephone network. An extension could dial a special code and then be connected to the P.A. This was often used, among other functions, to page managers. (This capability existed long before Divesture, and apparently a rare example of where Bell allowed an interface between its equipment and privately owned customer equipment). A modern adaption is supermarket managers carrying cordless telephone sets allowing them to receive or make calls while on the store floor, including P.A. announcements. Recently, an unknown person used a Walmart store telephone to access the P.A. system to broadcast offensive comments throughout the store. Police and store officials are investigating. Walmart announced its changing its system to restrict access. small article at: http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/new_jersey/88456347.html Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:39:21 -0500 From: bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Message-ID: <G6WdncIvkvZkfT7WnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@posted.nuvoxcommunications> In article <u%Mon.261188$OX4.139528@newsfe25.iad>, Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com> wrote: >Steven wrote: >> Thad Floryan wrote: >> >>> Mississippi HB-872 was signed into law Monday by Mississippi >>> Governor Haley Barbour and makes Caller ID spoofing illegal: >>> >>> http://www.wdam.com/Global/story.asp?S=12154048 >>> >>> The law covers alterations to the caller's name, telephone >>> number, or name and telephone number that is shown to a >>> recipient of a call or otherwise presented to the network. >>> The law applies to PSTN, wireless and VoIP calls. Penalties >>> for each violation can be up to $1,000 and one year in jail. >>> Blocking of caller identification information is still >>> permitted. >>> >> And how are they going to enforce their state law from someone spoofing >> who is in India or China? >> > Is there an SS7 compatible data channel between India or China to > the U.S. that can carry the CPIN message? India: "yes", from direct experience -- don't know how deep the penetration is to more rural areas, though. China: no hard knowledge -- I expect there is SS7 at least to the border; open question about penetration, internally. In actuality, "less developed" areas, that have phone service, are more likely to have 'state of the art' capabilities than places with long- established plant. Putting in facilities 'for the first time', you tend to install 'state of the art'. With an established facility, you have to wait till you can economically justify the upgrade. look at how long some step, panel, and crossbar switches survived in North America. It's a safe bet that nobody was putting any of those into new installations (anywhere) for decades before the 'last one' was retired. > Second question: Do the U.S. gateway switches send the CPIN message > to foreign countries (other than Canada, which is not really foreign > from a telephony standpoint)? Yes. Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:59:01 +1100 From: David Clayton <dcstar@myrealbox.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject:Phones in prisons Message-ID: <pan.2010.03.19.21.59.00.91629@myrealbox.com> From: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/double-killer-caught-using-mobile-phones-in-loddon-prison-in-central-victoria/story-e6frf7jo-1225842561805 Double killer caught using mobile phones in Loddon Prison in central Victoria A DOUBLE killer with a history of jail escapes and his murderer mate have been caught using mobile telephones in an alarming jail security breach. Loddon Prison in central Victoria has been nicknamed Crazy John's after the three mobiles and other accessories were found by jail authorities. Double killer John Wallace Lindrea, fellow murderer Francis John McCullagh and four other prisoners were linked to the phones. There was particular concern about Lindrea having access to a phone, given his violent criminal history and record of escapes. He is regarded as one of the state's most devious prison escapees and troublemakers. It is believed the mobiles were smuggled in cans of baked beans, which had been opened then soldered shut. ......... To explain one thing, "Crazy John's" is a major mobile phone retailer here in Australia. Date: 19 Mar 2010 22:35:16 -0000 From: John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Message-ID: <20100319223516.60819.qmail@simone.iecc.com> > Second question: Do the U.S. gateway switches send the CPIN message > to foreign countries (other than Canada, which is not really foreign > from a telephony standpoint)? Yes. I get CLID on calls to and from the UK all the time. R's, John Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:46:49 -0500 From: bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Message-ID: <y6GdnXervJIkfz7WnZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@posted.nuvoxcommunications> In article <pan.2010.03.19.04.02.27.685564@myrealbox.com>, David Clayton <dcstar@myrealbox.com> wrote: >On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:52:00 -0500, John Mayson wrote: > >> On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Steven <diespammers@killspammers.com> >> wrote: >> >>> And how are they going to enforce their state law from someone spoofing >>> who is in India or China? >> >> Simple. They aren't. This is yet another example of a useless piece of >> legislation pushed through because the people demand they "do something". >> I wonder how many in the state capitol even understood the technology they >> were attempting to regulate? > > Will spoofed SS7 attributes like that cross country phone network > boundaries? why not? It's just a (unchecked) string of bits. Its not like that information was used for anything important, like billing -- i.e., inter-carrier settlements. > I can quite understand CID inside a network with some controlled > boundaries, but international as well? What issue(s) do you see? Not worried about having to stand on your head to read ID info from the other hemisphere are you? GRIN Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:50:48 +1100 From: David Clayton <dcstar@myrealbox.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <pan.2010.03.19.21.50.45.133943@myrealbox.com> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:25:38 -0700, hancock4 wrote: > On Mar 17, 6:51 pm, David Clayton <dcs...@myrealbox.com> wrote: ....... >> I think that people have been more than well-served by this sort of >> infrastructure over the years it has existed, but there must come a >> time when it is acknowledged that total replacement is necessary and >> that such a thing will cost money. > > It's certainly not gonna be my money if it does what I want it to do. > > I have a collection of phonograph records, audio cassette tapes, and VHS > video tapes. They are all technologically obsolete. For that reason > alone, should I go out and spend $$$$ to get it all on CDs or whatever > the latest format is? No, not unless you want things that no longer will be available in the other formats because the infrastructure for providing those formats has been deemed uneconomical and has to make way for the newer ones. My point is that for all the newer technologies that might work on well kept legacy plant, should we have an expectation that all this old technology infrastructure will be kept going when newer technologies will emerge and suck up the available money? One day the question will be asked as to why one sort of communication service based on one type of old technology should be kept going when alternatives based on different technologies exist - and costs will push the date closer and closer. -- Regards, David. David Clayton Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Knowledge is a measure of how many answers you have, intelligence is a measure of how many questions you have. Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:46:46 -0700 From: Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Message-ID: <H1Uon.94717$K81.90365@newsfe18.iad> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: > As an aside, I get calls from phones served by various PBXs. The > number that shows up is the outgoing trunk the PBX happened to select, > not the main number of the PBX nor the extension. I have no problem > with that. The few folks who call me from PBXes deliver the company's listed (primary) number. Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:48:33 -0700 From: Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Message-ID: <m3Uon.94718$K81.29700@newsfe18.iad> John Levine wrote: >>Second question: Do the U.S. gateway switches send the CPIN message >>to foreign countries (other than Canada, which is not really foreign >>from a telephony standpoint)? > > > Yes. I get CLID on calls to and from the UK all the time. > > R's, > John > That represents progress, for certain. Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:49:50 -0700 From: Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Walmart changing phone system after abuse Message-ID: <y4Uon.94719$K81.49460@newsfe18.iad> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: > For decades, many businesses have had public address systems > integrated with their telephone network. An extension could dial a > special code and then be connected to the P.A. This was often used, > among other functions, to page managers. (This capability existed > long before Divesture, and apparently a rare example of where Bell > allowed an interface between its equipment and privately owned > customer equipment). > > A modern adaption is supermarket managers carrying cordless telephone > sets allowing them to receive or make calls while on the store floor, > including P.A. announcements. > > Recently, an unknown person used a Walmart store telephone to access > the P.A. system to broadcast offensive comments throughout the store. > Police and store officials are investigating. > > Walmart announced its changing its system to restrict access. > > small article at: http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/new_jersey/88456347.html > The fact it is a felony in N.J. is downright scary. Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:53:13 -0700 From: Thad Floryan <thad@thadlabs.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <4BA41C79.1060303@thadlabs.com> "On 3/19/2010 10:06 AM, PV wrote: "> Telecom Digest Moderator wrote: ">> However, this brings up a good question: are car batteries suitable ">> for use in any backup service? Despite their shortcomings, their ">> price/performance ratio might justify the compromises. "> "> Not really, no. They are designed for a quick jolt of huge current and "> then lots of quiet time. It's like using a sprinter for a marathon. "> "> For recovery purposes, you use deep cycle batteries. * " "***** Moderator's Note ***** " "I understand what you've written, but that's not the question I need "an answer to. Given the price/performance ratio of a car battery, are "there ANY backup applications it's suited for? Think about it: I can "buy them on any streetcorner in the world, they have recharging "stations as close as the nearest working automobile, and they're as "rugged as any battery gets. " "What's the amp-hour capacity of a typical car battery? May I assume "that I can draw that capacitiy for that many hours from a new auto "battery? Can I draw 1/10 that capacity for 10 times more hours? Cars batteries will sulfate quickly when used outside their design parameters such as a source of backup power. When that happens, the batteries are essentially belly-up though there are newer desulfating chargers that often can "kick" some "new" life into them for awhile. The kind of charger shown at the right rear of this picture is the "old" type and it cannot desulfate: http://thadlabs.com/PIX/battery_packs.jpg The following charger is an example of the new computerized style and it can desulfate "dead" batteries: http://thadlabs.com/PIX/web_vector_box.jpg http://thadlabs.com/PIX/web_vector_charger.jpg I bought the (above) Vector charger at a Target IIRC, but they're also available at auto stores, RV stores, marine stores, etc. I use the following charger for my Honda home generator to keep its starter battery charged: http://thadlabs.com/PIX/web_battery_tender.jpg and I bought it at a local Honda/Ducati motorcycle shop at the same time as the generator. I have never been inside a CO but it's my understanding COs have large volumes set aside for batteries to power the local PSTN when commercial power is down due to storms, accidents, etc. Given the acknowledged expertise of the "real" AT&T and Western Electric in this regards, it seems to me that whatever battery type they chose for that application would be the same type ideal for UPS systems. My >>GUESS<< is that such batteries follow the design principles of deep-discharge marine batteries and the batteries used for powered wheelchairs and golf carts. For what it's worth, my fellow amateur astronomers have only had grief attempting to use automobile batteries to power their scopes at night. Grief = frequent need for replacement, short backup times, etc etc etc. Auto batteries simply cannot endure complete discharge whereas deep cycle batteries can and do. The main difference is the thickness of the lead plates in the battery -- auto batteries have thin plates, deep discharge have very, very thick plates -- which is why auto batteries are relatively light-weight and deep-cycle batteries begin around 50 pounds. I find myself having to carry two deep-cycle batteries at a time, one on each arm, simply to maintain my balance. Hand carts would be good for carrying, too. ***** Moderator's Note ***** I'm sorry, but I'm lost. I just can't get my head around it: I've seen a car battery melt a screwdriver, and then after a quick jump-start it was fine. If that isn't "rugged", I can't define it. I'd like to set up a ham radio station for "Field day" in June, and claim the extra credit available for battery operation, so that's one question, i.e., would a car battery work to power a ~5 amp load for twelve hours? Beyond that, though, I'm just flabbergasted that auto batteries can't be used in some way when emergency power is needed. I suppose it's like trying to explain why a car alternator isn't the best candidate for a hand-cranked power source: intuition always loses out to training. Bill "Wishfull thinking" Horne Moderator Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:55:56 +0000 (UTC) From: richgr@panix.com (Rich Greenberg) To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Message-ID: <ho12uc$6m0$1@reader1.panix.com> In article <H1Uon.94717$K81.90365@newsfe18.iad>, Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com> wrote: >hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: > >> As an aside, I get calls from phones served by various PBXs. The >> number that shows up is the outgoing trunk the PBX happened to select, >> not the main number of the PBX nor the extension. I have no problem >> with that. > >The few folks who call me from PBXes deliver the company's listed >(primary) number. The PBX can supply the CID for the outgoing call. This is one way to spoof the CID. -- Rich Greenberg N Ft Myers, FL, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 239 543 1353 Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67 Canines:Val, Red, Shasta & Casey (RIP), Red & Zero, Siberians Owner:Chinook-L Retired at the beach Asst Owner:Sibernet-L Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:40:17 -0700 From: AES <siegman@stanford.edu> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <siegman-B93F9F.17401719032010@sciid-srv02.med.tufts.edu> In article <cMednUftDtAgMj7WnZ2dnUVZ_oEAAAAA@supernews.com>, pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) wrote: > > Someone please help out an old CO Tech, and tell me what a "vrad" is > > and what "uverse" is. Please. > > A VRAD is an outside plant item that is used to operate the fiber part > of AT&T's new broadband offering, which is called uverse. * Would it be a bit more accurate (though much more wordy) to say that a VRAD is a collection of optical and electronic equipment, typically housed in a refrigerator-sized enclosure, that detects the multichannel optical signals coming in on an optical fiber, splits the channels apart, and sends the appropriate signals out over copper to each of a designated set of nearby residences or other customers; and also does the reverse for signals coming back from the customers, combining them and sending them out as optical signals going back into the fiber? [I'm no expert on this, but I believe that's what a VRAD does. Whether a given VRAD will detect and process signals coming in more than one fiber in a given fiber cable I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.] Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:53:21 EDT From: Wesrock@aol.com To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <23e6d.63747b8f.38d56871@aol.com> In a message dated 3/19/2010 3:10:37 PM Central Daylight Time, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes: > However, there is no need to replace a working 30 year old 2500 set > that uses a G handset used for POTS. That phone is ancient > technology--functionally, the transmission is basically from 1938 > and the tone pad from 1962. Does not matter. A new phone would not > work significantly better, or even noticeably better. Indeed, the > user may prefer the variable adjustable real ringer as opposed to > the harsh modern tone ringer. I have several sets of that age (mostly Trimline) in my house and certainly do not want to replace them. I have looked for what is available today and they are neither as technically satisfactory nor as sturdy nor as well engineered for human factors as the sets of that era. are. (We were looking to add a set but after looking at what "modern" sets are like I found an old set in a drawer and it works fine.) Wes Leatherock wesrock@aol.com wleathus@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:58:45 EDT From: Wesrock@aol.com To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon Message-ID: <24239.2210dd71.38d569b5@aol.com> In a message dated 3/19/2010 3:32:06 PM Central Daylight Time, mds@camsul.com writes: In Message-ID <9131e.79352b52.38d42256@aol.com>, Wes Leatherock asks: > Does the Empire City Subway Company still exist?' > Yes it does. As I'm sure you know, it was a subsidiary of Western > Union that owned conduits below the streets of New York. It was > later bought by MCI, which is now merged into Verizon. The company > itself still exists. Its website is > http://www.empirecitysubway.com/, and the site says: > Empire City Subway Company (ECS) is a wholly owned subsidiary of > Verizon that specializes in subsurface engineering and construction > services. Since 1891, ECS has held a franchise from the City of New > York to build and maintain a conduit and manhole infrastructure in > Manhattan and the Bronx. ECS rents this space to telecommunications > and cable television service providers > ECS also provides a broad array of services to facilitate the > installation, maintenance and protection of underground cables in > the greater metropolitan New York City area. Noting the "ECS" in the segment above reminds me that the manhole covers were cast with the letters "E C S C Ltd." Wes Leatherock wesrock@aol.com wleathus@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:02:33 EDT From: Wesrock@aol.com To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Walmart changing phone system after abuse Message-ID: <244ef.880c34a.38d56a99@aol.com> In a message dated 3/19/2010 3:39:10 PM Central Daylight Time, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes: > For decades, many businesses have had public address systems > integrated with their telephone network. An extension could dial a > special code and then be connected to the P.A. This was often used, > among other functions, to page managers. (This capability existed > long before Divesture, and apparently a rare example of where Bell > allowed an interface between its equipment and privately owned > customer equipment). I seem to recall that there were Bell tariffs providing specifically for terminals to attach the customer's paing system. Wes Leatherock wesrock@aol.com wleathus@yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:12:55 EDT From: Wesrock@aol.com To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Mississippi makes Caller ID spoofing illegal Message-ID: <24c18.a647c31.38d56d07@aol.com> >In a message dated 3/19/2010 3:42:18 PM Central Daylight Time, >bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com writes: > >article <u%Mon.261188$OX4.139528@newsfe25.iad>, >Sam Spade <sam@coldmail.com> wrote: >>Steven wrote: >>> Thad Floryan wrote: >>> >>>> Mississippi HB-872 was signed into law Monday by Mississippi >>>> Governor Haley Barbour and makes Caller ID spoofing illegal: >>>> >>>> http://www.wdam.com/Global/story.asp?S=12154048 >>>> >>>> The law covers alterations to the caller's name, telephone >>>> number, or name and telephone number that is shown to a >>>> recipient of a call or otherwise presented to the network. >>>> The law applies to PSTN, wireless and VoIP calls. Penalties >>>> for each violation can be up to $1,000 and one year in jail. >>>> Blocking of caller identification information is still >>>> permitted. >>>> >>> And how are they going to enforce their state law from someone spoofing >>> who is in India or China? >>> >> Is there an SS7 compatible data channel between India or China to >> the U.S. that can carry the CPIN message? > > India: "yes", from direct experience -- don't know how deep the > penetration is to more rural areas, though. China: no hard > knowledge -- I expect there is SS7 at least to the border; open > question about penetration, internally. > In actuality, "less developed" areas, that have phone service, are > more likely to have 'state of the art' capabilities than places with > long-established plant. Putting in facilities 'for the first time', > you tend to install 'state of the art'. With an established > facility, you have to wait till you can economically justify the > upgrade. There was an examples of that in Oklahoma where Oklahoma City and Tulsa and a few, I believe seven, CDOS were the only places with dial service. After World War II, when equipment became available some years after the end of the war, there was a big push to convert eveything to dial. Most of the new dial exchanges went in with DDD, and customers in Oklahoma City and Tulsa were well familiar with it from there contacts with people in those towns and wanted it in the larger cities. The projections when CAMA went in in Oklahoma Citey and Tulsa, were that it would take a year or so to fully educate customers in how to use it and get it up to the projected amount of DDD traffic. Because of customers' familiarity with it, when it was cut over the percentage of DDD traffic was up to the projected volume several months away was attatined in a week or two, and the one-year perojection was reached in a few months. Wes Leatherock wesrock@aol.com wleathus@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:35:29 -0500 From: rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <0o2dnbK5AdnsqTnWnZ2dnUVZ_v6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net> The Moderator wrote: +--------------- | PV <pv+usenet@pobox.com> wrote: | > > However, this brings up a good question: are car batteries suitable | > > for use in any backup service? Despite their shortcomings, their | > > price/performance ratio might justify the compromises. | > | > Not really, no. They are designed for a quick jolt of huge current and | > then lots of quiet time. It's like using a sprinter for a marathon. | > | > For recovery purposes, you use deep cycle batteries. * .... | I understand what you've written, but that's not the question I need | an answer to. Given the price/performance ratio of a car battery, are | there ANY backup applications it's suited for? Think about it: I can | buy them on any streetcorner in the world, they have recharging | stations as close as the nearest working automobile, and they're as | rugged as any battery gets. | | What's the amp-hour capacity of a typical car battery? May I assume | that I can draw that capacitiy for that many hours from a new auto | battery? Can I draw 1/10 that capacity for 10 times more hours? +--------------- Bill, battery management is a complex issue. For an in-depth answer to your question, I refer you to the lead-acid sections of the excellent http://batteryuniversity.com/ resource, especially the sections mentioned below. But the main disadvantage of "typical car batteries" (as opposed to SLA, VRLA, or gel-cell lead acid) is the risk of explosion when used indoors due to hydrogen venting when charging [especially when re-charging from a deep discharge]. Yes, proper ventilation can protect against this, but still. Anyway, give the following stuff a read. If you really want to use lead-acid, it looks like golf-cart batteries [which, as noted by the previous posters, are built differently from car-starting batteries] would probably be your best cost/capacity tradeoff. http://batteryuniversity.com/partone-6.htm Can the lead-acid battery compete in modern times? http://batteryuniversity.com/partone-6a.htm Modern Lead Battery Systems http://batteryuniversity.com/partone-13.htm Charging the lead-acid battery ... When configuring a battery as a buffer, make certain that the battery has the opportunity to fully charge between loads. ... Deep discharges should be avoided if possible. Assure that the float charge voltage is set correctly. http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-31.htm The secrets of battery runtime ... The internal resistance of Lead-acid batteries is very low. The battery responds well to short current bursts but has difficulty providing a high, sustained load. Over time, the internal resistance increases through sulfation and grid corrosion. ... One of the best batteries in terms of self-discharge is Lead-acid; it only self-discharges 5% per month. Unfortunately, this chemistry has the lowest energy density and is ill suited for portable applications. ... http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-32.htm Non-Correctable Battery Problems ... A lead-acid battery self-discharges at only 5% per month or 50% per year. Repeated deep cycling increases self-discharge. ... Permeation, or loss of electrolyte in valve regulated lead-acid batteries (VRLA) is a recurring problem. Overcharging and operating at high temperatures are the causes. Replenishing lost liquid by adding water offers limited success. Although some capacity may be regained, the performance becomes unreliable. ... http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-35.htm How to restore and prolong lead-acid batteries ... Simple Guidelines ...[short list of recommendations]... Note: Wheelchair batteries don't last as long as golf cart batteries because of sulfation. The theory goes that a golf cart battery gets a full 14 hours charge whereas a wheelchair only gets 7 hours while the user sleeps. http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-40.htm What's the best battery for wheeled and stationary applications? ... Regular car batteries are sometimes used for cost reasons. There is, however, a danger of spillage if overturned. Neither are regular car batteries designed for deep cycling. ... What's the best battery for stationary applications? Until the mid 1970s, most stationary batteries were flooded lead-acid. The Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) allowed batteries to be installed in smaller confinements because the cells could be stacked and mounted in any position. Although VRLA are less durable than flooded lead-acid, simple mounting and lower cost make them the preferred battery system for small and medium sized installations. Most UPS systems repeater stations for cell phones use VRLA. Large installations, such as internet hubs, hospitals, banks and airports still use the flooded lead-acid. ... http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-42D.htm Testing deep cycle lead acid batteries ... Lead acid batteries come in two basic architectures: deep cycle and starter types. The deep cycle battery is designed for maximum capacity and high cycle count. This is achieved by installing thick lead plates. Typical applications are golf carts, wheelchairs, people movers, scissor lifts and RVs. Starter batteries, in comparison, are made for maximum CCA (cold cranking amp). The battery maker obtains this by adding extra plates to get a large surface area for maximum conductivity. Capacity and deep cycling are less important for automotive because the battery is being recharged while driving. If continuously cycled, the thin lead plates of the starter battery would wear-down rather quickly. ... -Rob Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org> 627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/> San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:38:18 -0700 (PDT) From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <96966386-a612-4d22-ac36-c908d646d259@b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> On Mar 19, 8:53 pm, Thad Floryan <t...@thadlabs.com> wrote: > > I have never been inside a CO but it's my understanding COs have large > volumes set aside for batteries to power the local PSTN when commercial > power is down due to storms, accidents, etc.  Given the acknowledged > expertise of the "real" AT&T and Western Electric in this regards, it > seems to me that whatever battery type they chose for that application > would be the same type ideal for UPS systems. My >>GUESS<< is that such > batteries follow the design principles of deep-discharge marine batteries > and the batteries used for powered wheelchairs and golf carts. I recall several articles describing battery research and development in the old Bell Laboratories Record, during its last decade of publication. I realize that's not much of a pointer, but if there's an index of them maybe that provide some information. I do recall that they considered everything about a battery, even the case (which became round and translucent). > ***** Moderator's Note ***** > > I'm sorry, but I'm lost. I just can't get my head around it: I've seen > a car battery melt a screwdriver, and then after a quick jump-start it > was fine. If that isn't "rugged", I can't define it. I'm no engineer, but I think someone above described it as the difference between a marathon runner and a sprinter. Both are athletes in good strong physical condition. But one focuses on a short burst of high speed while the other focuses on long distance. Or baseball hitters--some are good hitters to get on base while others are 'sluggers' to hit home runs. It's like combustibles--some burn bright but burn out fast while others burn dim but last long. Even the old carbon-zinc No. 6 dry cells had different mixtures for telephone service--they were marked and intended for "intermitent service". Their chemistry was such that they worked best for short duration uses, like a quick phone call; after that, the chemistry would slightly replenish itself. > I'd like to set up a ham radio station for "Field day" in June, and > claim the extra credit available for battery operation, so that's one > question, i.e., would a car battery work to power a ~5 amp load for > twelve hours?  Beyond that, though, I'm just flabbergasted that auto > batteries can't be used in some way when emergency power is > needed. I suppose it's like trying to explain why a car alternator > isn't the best candidate for a hand-cranked power source: intuition > always loses out to training. A car battery certainly could be used for emergency power; it's just that it won't last as long (either its charge or the battery itself) or be as economical to use as a battery intended for emergency use. I am curious how long a car battery's charge does last to supply power. On a warm day I left my parking lights on* and when I returned to the car about 6 hours later the car started fine. So what's the amp load of parking lights? (I believe the headlights consume much more power). Of course the time will depend on temperature and physical condition of the battery. (*My current car automatically switches the headlights off when I turn off the engine if I forget to turn them off.) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:41:10 -0400 From: Ron <ron@see.below> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <hif8q590n7n4s0vd8v5p8rtv6cc6ic5bit@4ax.com> Moderator wrote: > I understand what you've written, but that's not the question I need > an answer to. Given the price/performance ratio of a car battery, > are there ANY backup applications it's suited for? Think about it: > I can buy them on any streetcorner in the world, they have > recharging stations as close as the nearest working automobile, and > they're as rugged as any battery gets. Yes, a car battery will work fine as a backup power source. Once. A deep discharge will permanently damge the battery. You can recharge it, but its capacity is now permanently reduced. Do it again, and you further damage it and further reduce the capacity. If it's a one-shot you're looking for and then turn in the battery for recycling, you can go for it. If you plan to ever use it again, it's throwing away money. Most places that sell batteries also offer deep-discharge versions. If you want to use a car battery for occasional backup purposes, and will never dischage it very far, then you can probably get away with it. > What's the amp-hour capacity of a typical car battery? May I assume > that I can draw that capacitiy for that many hours from a new > auto battery? Can I draw 1/10 that capacity for 10 times more hours? Capacity is generally around 40-50 amp hours given a 20 hour discharge rate. If you discharge it at a slower rate, you effectively have more amp hours. Car batteries often have a "reserve capacity" rating. This is how long it can supply 25 amps. Take a 50 AH battery. Discharge it at 2.5 amps and get 20 hours. Discharge it at .25 amps and get more than 200 hours. Discharge it at 5 amps and get less then 10 hours. -- Ron (user telnom.for.plume in domain antichef.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:15:35 -0700 From: Thad Floryan <thad@thadlabs.com> To: telecomdigestmoderator.remove-this@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org. Subject: Re: Waiting for Verizon.. Message-ID: <4BA44BE7.5090000@thadlabs.com> On 3/19/2010 5:53 PM, Thad Floryan wrote: > [...] > For what it's worth, my fellow amateur astronomers have only had grief > attempting to use automobile batteries to power their scopes at night. > Grief = frequent need for replacement, short backup times, etc etc etc. > > Auto batteries simply cannot endure complete discharge whereas deep cycle > batteries can and do. The main difference is the thickness of the lead > plates in the battery -- auto batteries have thin plates, deep discharge > have very, very thick plates -- which is why auto batteries are relatively > light-weight and deep-cycle batteries begin around 50 pounds. I find > myself having to carry two deep-cycle batteries at a time, one on each arm, > simply to maintain my balance. Hand carts would be good for carrying, too. > > ***** Moderator's Note ***** > > I'm sorry, but I'm lost. I just can't get my head around it: I've seen > a car battery melt a screwdriver, and then after a quick jump-start it > was fine. If that isn't "rugged", I can't define it. Repeat the above 20 times and be sure to wear frontal protection including a face mask (as would be used in a machine shop) and rubber gloves. :-) Seriously, my and 1000s of thousands of others' experience attempting to use an auto battery for powering laptops and computerized scopes over the course of a night shows the folly of continuing to do so -- the battery(ies) deteriorate quickly and will need replacement quickly. The ONLY (affordable and easily findable) battery that works for hours is the deep-cycle/-discharge type. You'll buy 10+ auto batteries to get the same duration and reliability of a single deep-cycle battery and you will have spent a small fortune. IIRC, the last deep-cycle batteries I purchased were only US$50 or so at a local Costco. > I'd like to set up a ham radio station for "Field day" in June, and > claim the extra credit available for battery operation, so that's one > question, i.e., would a car battery work to power a ~5 amp load for > twelve hours? There are many "types" of car batteries and some of the newer-tech ones "might" provide up to 10 hours operation, but the lead-acid ones simply will not. What you want is a deep-cycle battery. The "jumpstart" batteries here http://thadlabs.com/PIX/battery_packs.jpg have Gel-cells rated from 17 to 19 Ah (Amp-hours). They would power a ~5 Amp load for about 2 to 3 hours per 19Ah/5A = 3.8h which should be derated ~50% as a rule of thumb per my experience with them. TELECOM Digest is an electronic journal devoted mostly to telecom- munications topics. It is circulated anywhere there is email, in addition to Usenet, where it appears as the moderated newsgroup 'comp.dcom.telecom'. TELECOM Digest is a not-for-profit, mostly non-commercial educational service offered to the Internet by Bill Horne. All the contents of the Digest are compilation-copyrighted. You may reprint articles in some other media on an occasional basis, but please attribute my work and that of the original author. The Telecom Digest is moderated by Bill Horne. Contact information: Bill Horne Telecom Digest 43 Deerfield Road Sharon MA 02067-2301 781-784-7287 bill at horne dot net Subscribe: telecom-request@telecom-digest.org?body=subscribe telecom Unsubscribe: telecom-request@telecom-digest.org?body=unsubscribe telecom This Digest is the oldest continuing e-journal about telecomm- unications on the Internet, having been founded in August, 1981 and published continuously since then. Our archives are available for your review/research. We believe we are the oldest e-zine/mailing list on the internet in any category! URL information: http://telecom-digest.org Copyright (C) 2009 TELECOM Digest. All rights reserved. Our attorney is Bill Levant, of Blue Bell, PA. --------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, the Digest is funded by gifts from generous readers such as yourself who provide funding in amounts deemed appropriate. Your help is important and appreciated. A suggested donation of fifty dollars per year per reader is considered appropriate. See our address above. Please make at least a single donation to cover the cost of processing your name to the mailing list. All opinions expressed herein are deemed to be those of the author. Any organizations listed are for identification purposes only and messages should not be considered any official expression by the organization. End of The Telecom Digest (31 messages)