From editor@telecom-digest.org Fri Nov 19 17:36:39 2004 Received: (from ptownson@localhost) by massis.lcs.mit.edu (8.11.6p3/8.11.6) id iAJMadg26869; Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:36:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:36:39 -0500 (EST) From: editor@telecom-digest.org Message-Id: <200411192236.iAJMadg26869@massis.lcs.mit.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: massis.lcs.mit.edu: ptownson set sender to editor@telecom-digest.org using -f To: ptownson Approved: patsnewlist Subject: TELECOM Digest V23 #556 TELECOM Digest Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:37:00 EST Volume 23 : Issue 556 Inside This Issue: Editor: Patrick A. Townson USOC, SLDC, and FID Concepts (Matt) Call For Papers: Bellua Cyber Security Asia 2005 (Anthony Zboralski) Global Router sales Rise in 3Q (Telecom dailyLead from USTA) The Complete Communicator (A M Andrews) Great Telecom Blog (Cindi Jenkins) Re: SBC's VoIP End Run (Tim@Backhome.org) Re: SBC's VoIP End Run (jdj) Re: EFF: Anti-Spam Measures Block Free Speech (Barry Margolin) Re: EFF: Anti-Spam Measures Block Free Speech (Jim Hatfield) Re: Update: Vonage Ring Problem (John R. Covert) Re: Movie Studios to Sue Internet File Traders (charsand) Re: Looking For VOIP Provider That Do Business With Government (Weintz) Mystery Phone Number Revisited (Salvatore Petrarca) Re: Employment Opportunity: Do You Know Telco Expert? (Wesrock@aol.com) Re: What Wal-Mart Knows About Customers' Habits (Clarence Dold) Re: What Wal-Mart Knows About Customers' Habits (Lisa Hancock) Re: What Wal-Mart Knows About Customers' Habits (Wesrock@aol.com) Sears and K-Mart (Lisa Hancock) Sorry About the Explosion (TELECOM Digest Editor) All contents here are copyrighted by Patrick Townson and the individual writers/correspondents. Articles may be used in other journals or newsgroups, provided the writer's name and the Digest are included in the fair use quote. By using -any name or email address- included herein for -any- reason other than responding to an article herein, you agree to pay a hundred dollars to the recipients of the email. =========================== Addresses herein are not to be added to any mailing list, nor to be sold or given away without explicit written consent. Chain letters, viruses, porn, spam, and miscellaneous junk are definitely unwelcome. We must fight spam for the same reason we fight crime: not because we are naive enough to believe that we will ever stamp it out, but because we do not want the kind of world that results when no one stands against crime. Geoffrey Welsh =========================== See the bottom of this issue for subscription and archive details and the name of our lawyer; other stuff of interest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jrefactors@hotmail.com (Matt) Subject: USOC, SLDC, and FID Concepts Date: 19 Nov 2004 11:56:34 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com I tried to search for info. on USOC, SLDC, and FID, but couldn't find useful info. Can anyone gives me some definitions, or URL for those info.? Thanks!! ------------------------------ From: anthony.zboralski@gmail.com (Anthony Zboralski) Subject: Call for Papers: Bellua Cyber Security Asia 2005 Date: 19 Nov 2004 11:45:38 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Dear all, Submissions related to Telecom Security will be greatly appreciated. Emmanuel Gadaix will be giving a talk on SS7 Security and hacking. Bellua Cyber Security Asia 2005 - http://www.bellua.com/bcs2005 Call for Papers and Workshops http://www.bellua.com/bcs2005/asia05.cfp.html From 21st - 24th March the largest information security conference in Asia will take place in Jakarta, Indonesia at the Hotel Borobudur. * 21-22 March 2005: Workshops * 23-24 March 2005: Conference Bellua will bring together over 20 researchers and practitioners from numerous disciplines to discuss present and future information security issues through an intensive series of workshops, presentations, technical sessions and demonstrations. The partial list of speakers include Ralph Logan, Adam O'Donnel, David Maynor [ISS X-Force], The Grugq, Jim Geovedi [HERT], Fetri Miftach and John Grygorcewicz. Over 30 workshops will be offered and taught by the most respected experts in the field. Ethical hacking & security contests will let novices develop their skills and challenge experts in their favorite arenas, allowing all a chance to win prizes. The program committe invites proposals for paper presentations, demonstrations and poster contributions on any topic relevant to cyber security and hacking. The conference talks will be spread across 2 concurrent tracks focusing on both business and technical aspects of information security. Your submission should include: 1. Name, title, address, email and phone number 2. Draft of the proposed presentation (in PDF, PowerPoint or Keynote format), proof of concept for tools and exploits, etc. 3. Short biography, qualification, occupation, achievement and affiliations (limit 150 words). 4. Summary or abstract for your presentation (limit 150 words) 5. Time (40-60 minutes). Include time for discussion and questions 6. Technical requirements (video, internet, wireless, audio, etc.) * Each speaker will receive an honorarium, hotel accommodation, and reimbursement of travel expenses. * Posters contributors will receive one complimentary conference pass. * Please read the detailed CFP at the following URL: http://www.bellua.com/bcs2005/asia05.cfp.html Please send your proposal to cfp2005@bellua.com as soon as possible and no later than 20 December 2005. Call for Workshops proposal This is also a call for workshops. One of the objectives of this meeting is to allow researchers to gain a background in areas that they may know little about. Towards that end a number of Workshops are planned. * Again please read the detailed CFP for more information: http://www.bellua.com/bcs2005/asia05.cfp.html Please send the workshop proposal to cfp2005@bellua.com as soon as possible and no later than 20 December 2005. Phone (GMT+7): +62 815 910 2495 Thanks & regards, 1. Name, title, address, email and phone number 2. Draft of the proposed presentation (in PDF, PowerPoint or Keynote format), proof of concept for tools and exploits, etc. 3. Short biography, qualification, occupation, achievement and affiliations (limit 150 words). 4. Summary or abstract for your presentation (limit 150 words) 5. Time (40-60 minutes). Include time for discussion and questions 6. Technical requirements (video, internet, wireless, audio, etc.) * Each speaker will receive an honorarium, hotel accommodation, and reimbursement of travel expenses. * Posters contributors will receive one complimentary conference pass. * Please read the detailed CFP at the following URL: http://www.bellua.com/bcs2005/asia05.cfp.html Please send your proposal to cfp2005@bellua.com as soon as possible and no later than 20 December 2005. Call for Workshops proposal This is also a call for workshops. One of the objectives of this meeting is to allow researchers to gain a background in areas that they may know little about. Towards that end a number of Workshops are planned. * Again please read the detailed CFP for more information: http://www.bellua.com/bcs2005/asia05.cfp.html Please send the workshop proposal to cfp2005@bellua.com as soon as possible and no later than 20 December 2005. Phone: +62 815 910 2495 (WIT - GMT+7) Thanks & regards, Anthony Zboralski Bellua Asia Pacific - http://www.bellua.com/bcs2005 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:18:49 EST From: Telecom dailyLead from USTA Subject: Global router sales rise in 3Q Telecom dailyLead from USTA November 19, 2004 http://www.dailylead.com/latestIssue.jsp?i=17630&l=2017006 TODAY'S HEADLINES NEWS OF THE DAY * Global router sales rise in 3Q BUSINESS & INDUSTRY WATCH * Vodafone signals intention to buy equipment from Chinese companies * Boeing, Alcatel strike deal * Karmazin takes helm at Sirius * Survey: Lackluster marketing costs wireless companies billions USTA SPOTLIGHT * USTA Brings Together the Industry in 2005 EMERGING TECHNOLOGIES * Vodafone, SingTel put final touches on Aussie 3G deal REGULATORY & LEGISLATIVE * Philadelphia's Wi-Fi plan comes under threat Follow the link below to read quick summaries of these stories and others. http://www.dailylead.com/latestIssue.jsp?i=17630&l=2017006 ------------------------------ From: ama3@aol.com (A M Andrews) Subject: The Complete Communicator Date: 19 Nov 2004 08:44:51 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Looking for an answering/fax package for Win98 that is as good as the proprietary Complete Communicator was [for Win3.1]. "Was" because it seems to have disappeared -- and required its own modem. Everything was excellent: voices, defaults, setup ... Tried downloads/trial versions of others and setup is dreadful/non-intuitive, or worse, freezes system; usual response from help is "modem problem". Looking for basic telephone answering management package! ------------------------------ From: cindi@chiltown.com (Cindi Jenkins) Subject: Great Telecom Blog Date: 19 Nov 2004 08:04:22 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/eai/leadership ------------------------------ From: Tim@Backhome.org Subject: Re: SBC's VoIP End Run Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 02:20:19 -0800 Organization: Cox Communications Lisa Minter quoted the original poster from VOIP News: > Also, bear in mind that if *everyone* were to move to VoIP and other > non-traditional forms of telephony, then SBC's tariffs wouldn't > matter much. But, that is wishful thinking for many, many years to come. Broadband is a prerequiste for VoIP, and the facilities are far from being able to provide universal broadband availability. Further, where broadband is provided via DSL rather than cable, it seems the LECs will still strangle the service unless you buy it from them. ------------------------------ From: jdj Subject: Re: SBC's VoIP End Run Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:09:46 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com SBC's anti competitiveness seems to be evident, particularly in the business services area. So many CLEC customers have had their DS1, PRI or supertrunk just stop working at various times of the day, for hours on end, only to be told by the CLEC that the CLEC is waiting for SBC to do something on their end. Interesting that the failures tend to be loss of carrier, clock, battery, loss of termination at the switch, etc., adn. But when the customer switches to SBC, the failures are all gone and never return! I recall some of the early history of The Bell System and the tactics it used to become the monopoly it was. It is not surprising that things have not changed much. [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: No, things have not changed very much at all, especially where SBC -- Southwestern Bell -- is concerned, which is one reason I am inclined to stick with cable internet, even if they were not local people who run it here. PAT] ------------------------------ From: Barry Margolin Subject: Re: EFF: Anti-Spam Measures Block Free Speech Organization: Symantec Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:32:45 -0500 In article , Ed Clarke wrote: > In article , Monty Solomon wrote: >> EFF White Paper Reports on Collateral Damage to Free Expression in >> the Fight Against Spam >> San Francisco - Today the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) >> released a white paper (HTML - PDF) describing the effects of >> anti-spam technologies on free speech. "Noncommercial Email Lists: >> Collateral Damage in the Fight Against Spam" focuses on how groups >> running noncommercial email lists are being harmed by anti-spam >> techniques. The paper grew out of EFF's efforts to help MoveOn.org, >> human rights groups, parents' groups, and others, deliver email >> messages in the face of barriers that are aimed at stopping spam but >> that also stop wanted messages. > This is absolutely on purpose. Collateral Damage is a necessary > technique to rid the net of spammers. If you give money to a company > that facilitates spamming then you are no better than a spammer. Move > the damn website to an IP range owned by a company that does not spam. > Let the spam supporting service providers go broke because they have > no customers. Where does it say that this is the reason why MoveOn.org's mail is being blocked? One of the other problems that the white paper mentioned is mailers that assume that any bulk email is spam -- but legitimate mailing lists will necessarily send out bulk email. What bugs me is EFF's use of the phrase "free speech" to make this sound like a 1st Amendment issue. The 1st Amendment only limits the *government's* ability to curtail free speech. It doesn't require organizations to facilitate any particular communications. Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu Arlington, MA *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me *** ------------------------------ From: Jim Hatfield Subject: Re: EFF: Anti-Spam Measures Block Free Speech Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:40:54 +0000 Organization: Insignia Solutions Reply-To: jim.hatfield@insignia.com On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:26:33 -0700, DevilsPGD wrote: > I see dumb people, walking around like regular people. They don't see > each other. They only see what they wanna see. They don't know they're > dumb. Sixth Sense aside, there are people here in the UK who have devoted themselves to spotting and sneering at "dumb people": http://www.chavscum.co.uk/ You'd think people would have better things to do with their time. Jim Hatfield ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:05:45 -0500 (EST) From: John R. Covert Subject: Re: Update: Vonage Ring Problem If I remember correctly, the original discussion on this involved some old standard WeCo phones that were not ringing well on ATAs. I had that problem, and solved it by opening up all my phones (now connected to ATAs rather than to the traditional phone net) and moving the bell tension spring from the strong to the weak position. In the strong position, the bell requires a higher voltage to ring properly. In the weak position, on a long loop you end up with bell tinkle when other extensions go off an on-hook and during rotary dialing. Bell tinkle is not a problem when connected to the short loop inside your single dwelling only. There's no real need to up the voltage on the ATA if you just change the bell tension. In re the recent discussion about post dial delay on Vonage: They are not currently making "#" a terminator for timing on calls not beginning with "011", so it does no good. You will have a timeout on any call that does not begin with "1" since they are allowing variable length dialling. For example, you can call a Vonage (only a Vonage) customer with a UK number by dialling just 44 nn nnnn nnnn. There are currently no ambiguities with a U.S. 44X NXX XXXX number, and the decision on how to process the call is based on the length. Note that this ONLY works for actual Vonage customers with UK numbers, and not for other numbers in the UK. These calls are all Vonage in-network calls, and are free for Vonage customers, as well as if dialled from FWD using their peering code **243 44 nn nnnn nnnn. At the moment this only applies to Vonage UK "Virtual Numbers" pointing to US Vonage customers, but I fully expect (could turn out to be wrong) for it to work the same way for real Vonage UK customers later this year. /john ------------------------------ From: charlize_sand@yahoo.com (charsand) Subject: Re: Movie Studios to Sue Internet File Traders Date: 19 Nov 2004 11:35:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com billyzane1@excite.com (Bob Smythe) wrote in message news:: > The thing is, it is illegal to download or upload copyrighted works, > the concept of file sharing and actual file sharing is not illegal. I > do not condone illegal file sharing, but am just trying to clarify a > few things. > The MPAA (and RIAA) have not and will not target individual > downloaders. There is no real way to get them. They are not a law > enforcement agency. They cannot entrap individual users. If you > download from them, and they are the rightful owners, then there is no > law broken, even if it is widely know that the service being used is > to illegally obtain files. Plus having downloaded one file will not be > worthwhile anyway in court. > They will focus and be able to bust those who share (uploaders) works > they do not own. These are the people who are illegally distributing, > offering, sharing and causing the industry the most harm, and > potentially profiting from this type of activity. > Bottom line is if you do not share, then you run little to no risk of > being caught. > But people need to realize the impact reaches far beyond whether or > not they get caught. They are hurting our economy. A great number of > jobs and resources goes into creating movies and songs, and you are > stealing money out of their pockets and retailers, etc.. > For me, I do not like the threat of viruses and poor sound and picture > quality. That is why I stay away from such activity. That is the > greater threat. The fact that it is also illegal makes it even less > appealing. > Just buy the damn videos y'all. The industry will benefit by offering > an I-Tunes type service for those who want to get movies via > downloading for an affordable price. Say -8 bucks for a movie. YOu > have to go by the hardware and software to burn it and the dual > layered DVD's are like 4 bucks a pop I think. > BOB > Lisa Minter wrote in message > news:: >> LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Taking a cue from the music industry, film >> studios and the Motion Picture Association of America said on Thursday >> that they were readying the first lawsuits against people suspected of >> illegally distributing movies over the Internet. >> The civil suits will seek to stop trading and damages of up >> to $30,000 per film, the MPAA said, adding that damages could >> reach $150,000 if the infringement was deemed willful. >> Record companies have led the way with such lawsuits, targeting major >> traders of song files who use Kazaa and other programs to swap songs >> on the Web. The movie trade group, representing Hollywood's major >> studios, plans to launch its own legal challenges beginning Nov. 16. >> Studios have been slow to release DVD-quality films on the Internet >> because of the twin piracy and technological shortcomings -- it takes >> hours to download even a film at lower quality levels, while it takes >> minutes or seconds to download a song. Improving technology is cutting >> the gap, though. >> "That distinction is rapidly vanishing, so we are taking these actions >> to try and prevent this illegal activity from becoming mainstream," >> the MPAA said in a statement, adding that future technologies could >> allow movie downloads in as few as six seconds. >> MPAA President and Chief Executive Dan Glickman said at a news >> conference that the music industry has had an impact on music piracy >> with its lawsuits. >> That campaign has had a mixed reception from consumers and some in the >> industry, who have urged movie and music makers to develop easy-to-use >> technology for buying or renting content that would be a viable >> alternative to illegal downloads. >> Apple Computer Inc's iTunes is often heralded as an example of legal >> song buying that works. >> "The industry should be thinking of new ways to deploy the new >> technology rather than suing the consumer," said Mediaport >> Entertainment Inc. Chief Executive Helen Seltzer, which makes kiosks, >> or automatic teller machines, to buy and download music. "We find that >> if students are given an easy way to download, they will do it and pay >> for it happily," she said. >> An MPAA attorney said studios would launch fewer lawsuits than the >> record industry, which has pursued more than 5,000 people to >> date. Studios would also use "John Doe" lawsuits that allow them to >> pursue file traders without knowing the traders' identities. >> Chris Ruhland, a former studio lawyer now at Orrick Herrington & >> Sutcliffe, forecast the movie makers would win their days in >> court. "The law is very clear that unauthorized distribution of >> copyrighted material is illegal," he said. >> Reuters/VNU > [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: What MPAA and RIAA do not understand > (or pretend not to understand) is the purposes for which the net was > developed: It was developed for the sharing of ideas and files, at > no charge between the participants. What MPAA/RIAA seem to want is > the ability to put out their goods all over the public sidewalk, but > they do not feel people should be free to to examine same goods at > their leisure without paying for them. The net was around for a long > time before MPAA/RIAA came around wanting to put their trash out on > the public roadway, and they wanted to change the rules the minute > they got here from a place of free expression to a place where you > have to pay to view their stuff. There are plenty of ways to mark > directories (on computers) to keep people out of them who have not > paid. But it seems to be more to their advantage to use the net as > an advertising media then file suit against people who stop to look > (too long, and too extensively) rather than just move along. I do not > really have any sympathy for those relative newcomers to the net. PAT] I heard somewhere that those caught could receive not only fines, but jail time-is this true? [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: It would not suprise me at all. Nor does it surprise me that they just toss out lawsuits all over the place without even having the *name* or *any identity* of the persons they intend to sue. I can see where 'John Doe' might be a valid way to sue someone you had caught when you could not otherwise get his name, but lawsuits at random against John Does 1 through 9999 (fill in the names, addresses and particulars when you find the person) seems to me to be a gross abuse of the legal system. But they seem to be setting out the lawsuits, then finding the person later on and already having the suit set up. Not a good faith thing, IMO. PAT] ------------------------------ From: T. Sean Weintz Subject: Re: Looking For VOIP Provider That Can Do Business With Government Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:31:42 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com TELECOM Digest Editor noted in response to T. Sean Weintz: > [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Take your choice of them; personally > I suggest Vonage. If your volume of business is of any value to them > (and I think it might be), they'll figure out a way to write off the > 'tax' they think is due. PAT] Pat- Problem is it would NOT be high volume. Just 2-3 lines. What I plan on doing is hanging them off our PBX and having it route only the long distance calls over the VOIP lines. Have spoken to the Billing Dept at Vonage and they actually sounded annoyed at me for even asking. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:33:47 -0500 From: Salvatore Petrarca Subject: Mystery Phone Number Revisited Mr. Townson, Recently, I was contacted by a company/person with the phone number (866) 383-0986. A google search lead me to the edition of your newsletter referenced in the subject line. I attempted to contact Mr. Covert (whom is in the same situation as I) via e-mail in order to give him the information I gathered on the organization that had called both of us. My e-mail, however was bounced back. I am not requesting that you give me his e-mail address, I simply request that you forward the following message to him, if at all possible. -------------------------------- I recently recieved a call from the number 866-383-0986. A Google search yielded the MIT document (located here) with your transmission in it. > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:28:15 -0400 (EDT) > From: John R. Covert Subject: Indian Telemarketing Shop Service-Monitoring Line? > There's an interesting number on the caller-id of my fax line. The > call disconnected with no fax received. (866) 383-0986 > If you call it back, you get a recording with a distinctive Indian > accent saying, "Please dial the extension number which you want to > monitor." > Hmmmmm. > john After doing some research, I came upon the following information: Media Direct Marketing Consultants 1822 North Bend Drive Knoxville, TN 37909 (866) 383-0986 I seem to remember "Media Direct" coming up in quite a few spyware searches I've run. It's possible that by entering your fax number into a textarea in a webpage, the spyware could have picked it up and sent the information home, which is why they tried to "call" your fax machine. Have you been able to contact the company between the time you posted the message and now? Thanks, Sal Petrarca [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Mr. Covert reads this Digest on occassion so perhaps he will see your message here and respond. PAT] ------------------------------ From: Wesrock@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:00:03 EST Subject: Re: Employment Opportunity: Do You Know a Telco Maintenance Expert? In a message dated Thu, 18 Nov 2004 04:33:08 EST, HotJobs@MicroSurvivor.com writes: > On behalf of my client, I am looking for Technology Experts in the > area of "outside plant telecommunications", with respect to aerial or > buried cable comprising copper wire, coax or fiber optics, that are > interested in serving as an "Expert Witnesses" for a prestigious > litigation case to possibly set precedence for the industry. While we usually don't quibble about spelling errors, I would be concerned about seeking work with a lawyer who cannot distinguish between "precedents" and "precedence." That's more than just a spelling error. Wes Leatherock wesrock@aol.com wleathus@yahoo.com [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: At least he did not spell it 'president' as in Presedence Bush. PAT] ------------------------------ From: dold@XReXXWhatX.usenet.us.com Subject: Re: What Wal-Mart Knows About Customers' Habits Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:49:42 UTC Organization: a2i network > [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: that closely. There was a K-Mart in > the complex where Walmart is located; Walmart drove them out of > business two years ago. On the In Napa, California, there was a very old KMart store in a "strip mall" with a few other stores. The Lucky's grocery store closed when Alpha Beta bought Lucky's, and they kept a store open a couple of blocks away. KMart wanted to expand, opening one of their newer Super-KMarts, taking over the Lucky's space. Napa said no. They didn't want the expansion. They wanted another store to move in to Lucky's. KMart closed the store as too small and too old for their new network. The other little shops closed without the major draws in the shopping center. Six months later, Walmart razed the entire strip mall and built a new store that encompassed more square footage than the entire complex had before, and they are the sole store in the complex. Did Napa make a mistake, and decide to take an offer from Walmart? Had they already received the offer from Walmart before KMart asked? I was surprised that Walmart would put a store in Napa, since there was already one in American Canyon, 14 miles away. Since then, they have applied for a move of the American Canyon store to a larger position 3 miles closer to Napa. Other stores can stay in business, but only in little tiny niches. No one can compete with Walmart. A new move by Walmart will leave merchandise in the inventory of the supplier until it is sold. $60 billion will disappear from Walmart books. This would really be "just in time". It would never belong to Walmart. It would be sold directly from the distributor to the consumer at the Walmart checkout. I think that is how Amazon.com operates with some of their suppliers, but they don't have physical control of the item, it remains with the distributor, who might route it elsewhere. In the Walmart case, it wouldn't be available for other use by the distributor. Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8-122.5 [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Distance between stores is not an issue for Walmart. In addition to ours here, they have another one in Coffeyville, and others throughout southeast Kansas. PAT] ------------------------------ From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa Hancock) Subject: Re: What Wal-Mart Knows About Customers' Habits Date: 19 Nov 2004 11:06:13 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Telecom editor wrote: > ... in 1963, I was employed by the fund raising committee to build a > new McCormick YWCA ... one of the guests at the luncheon was Myrtle > Walgreen, ... she reached in her purse and pulled out a check for > **fifty thousand dollars** I presume by that time the Walgreen chain had started and was properous. There in lies a dilemna -- on the one had chains have a lot of money, on the other hand, the families of said chains can be quite generous with it. Andrew Carnegie, who was quite ruthless as the head of US Steel, donated much of his fortune to public works, indeed, I think a foundation he created is still giving out money. (Libraries were a favorite and he built many throughout the country). > Walgreens *used to have* a soda fountain/lunch counter in every one of > their stores... Here's an example of the conflict between business vs. the town, mixed in with big and small. (Forgive parts previously discussed here). We had an independent drugstore that had a traditional soda fountain and lunch counter. The town liked that. However, the town's fathers had several run-ins with the pharmacist (the owner) over their historic district policies, parking, and allowable signage. The pharmacist closed up and went out of business. Frankly, the town fathers didn't care on account of their disputes, though many of the citizens liked his soda fountain and felt it added a lot to the "historicness" of the town. (Note the irony?) Anyway, CVS came in. Sometimes the town makes a business go through many hoops before it is approved. But CVS' plan sailed right through. They took over an empty store and fully rennovated it in an historic style (I must admit it does look nice). The town fathers were very pleased at the outcome. But none of them brought up the issue of independent vs. chain or the loss of the lunch counter. The inside of the CVS is cold and sterile. For good or bad the independent pharmacy owner was part of the community. The manager of the CVS is anonymous. The employees of the independent tended to stay a long time. Even kids he'd hire would start young and stay with him all through high school and college until they finally moved out into the real world; in contrast the kids at the CVS (who have much more customer contact including in the pharmacy) tend to turnover very rapidly. [Remember the old "Wonder Years" episode where Kevin worked for the grouchy hardware store owner, only to quit and briefly work anonymously at the mall?] If you get a smart kid you're well served, but most of them are pretty dumb, pretty bored, and very apathetic. They spend their time gossiping on their cellphones playing their boyfriends against each other. (When you're standing at the counter waiting to be rung up, you hear some nasty conversations among those teen girls). (As an aside, the whole thing illustrates the troubles of "historic districts" because the definitions of "historic" and allowable rennovations are so subjective.) Another business closed up and the building was available. The owner sold it to Starbucks. The town fathers were very anxious to get that through since they didn't want an empty building. But the people in the town objected to Starbucks and it led to a lot of protests. A neighboring business cleared trees from their parking lot to provide more parking and people were upset about that. The Starbucks did come in and it seems very nice although I myself won't spend $3 for a cup of coffee I can get for 79c down the street at the convenience store. Pat's point about an empty building vs. a chain in it is a good one. Also, not all chains are cold. We have a locally owned supermarket that charges premium prices. Some of my neighbors don't like it because he's expensive and shop in the chain supermarkets instead. But they had to admit the local owner is very supportive of community projects, such as sponsoring youth sports teams, a major donation to the 9/11 memorial, etc. The chains do nothing. ------------------------------ From: Wesrock@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:55:45 EST Subject: Re: What Wal-Mart Knows About Customers' Habits In a message dated 18 Nov 2004 09:41:13 -0800, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa Hancock) writes: > In the supermarket world, A&P was once a major leading chain. > It's still around but far from being a leader. Wasn't the Great Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company (the full corporate name of A&P Stores) once the largest retailer in the world, as Wal-Mart is now? ------------------------------ From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Lisa Hancock) Subject: Sears and K-Mart Date: 19 Nov 2004 11:50:34 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com [Telecom related stuff at the very end.] I am not thrilled about this merger because I fear it will bring out the bad aspects of both stores, not the better ones. I never liked SS Kresge (K-Mart's predecessor), always preferring Walmart. I never liked K-Mart, preferring other discount chains. Today I like Target. My last visit to K-Mart was quite miserable; they didn't have the advertised sale item and no one knew how to check the stock in the back or get more. I feel Sears has gone downhill in the last few years. In an effort to be more efficient, they have heavilly computerized. It can be difficult being on the other end of such systems when you need help as a customer. They are very much geared to "mass production" or universal service. My local store doesn't even have any customer service area to sit down with someone about the credit card or problem; everything is handled on the sales floor at the registers. The store is disorganized and very messy. They have spots of bare concrete floor awaiting rennovation, and merchandise piled high on tables unkempt. It's more like a old-neighborhood bargain store than a distinguished national department store. I don't expect tea and crumpets, but at least some cleanliness. My Sears charge card keeps getting all sorts of revision of its rules with booklets loaded with fine print. Makes me very nervous to use it, so I destroyed it. My area has a nice regional department store chain called Boscov's. They are not fancy, but very nice, and I hope they continue to succeed and thrive and not pressured out by the big boys. Their salespeople (who tend to be older people) are most helpful. Mr. Boscov, age 65 (son or grandson of the founder) is an old-style merchant prince--running around visiting every store, personally checking on displays, talking to customers and employees etc. I think most of the big chain dept stores need someone like Mr. Boscov who personally gets involved. That's how the old time merchants built up their businesses. But today they bring in anonymous managers who get transferred from city to city and have no loyalty to anything. They care solely about numbers on a computer printout generated by mysterious formulas. While these things are important (and even Mr. Boscov uses them), the human touch is important too. Consumer tastes are different in different cities, and _within neighborhoods_ of different cities. A store in a working class area will have different needs than a store in a fancy preppy suburb; but how is some distant chain HQ supposed to know what branches are what? Mr. Boscov will know because he spends time talking to his customers. JC Penney used to know since he did the same thing -- running around the stores until very late in life. I bet Sam Walton used to know, too, but does his successors? They said Walmart had to learn the hard way that Tide detergent wouldn't sell in some countries since they don't have washing machines. They needed to develop a hand version. There are two other national chains serving my area -- Strawbridges which I believe is owned by the May Company (who bought them) and Macy's. I think both are too homogenized and bland, governed by the impersonal printout. My local carrier, Verizon, is running the same risk of becomming too distant from the people it serves. Years ago they had business offices in regions, several throughout a big city. Today when you call them (they no longer accomodate in-person visits) your call can be routed anywhere. In the old days you could describe the intersection of your property to the service or repair rep and they'd know what you were talking about, not now. I realize with electronic switching and the Internet phone service is much more homogenized than in the days of party line SxS vs. a big crossbar system. But I still suspect different communities will have different calling and Internet needs, and that would impact the effectiveness of sales efforts and equipment upgrades. Perhaps kids in one neighborhood will be into voice calls while another into instant messaging on broadband. Perhaps business demands will vary. [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: In your last paragraph, '...electronic switching and Internet phone service vrs. party lines, SxS, etc ...' Yeah, but that's not *your* fault. All you want to get is some modicum of customer service. Why can't *they* take the responsibility for teaching *their people* how times have changed and what *they* need to do? Even if there were no difference at all in prices and Marvins charged the same or or more than Walmart for their groceries I would still go to Marvins. Why? Because the cashiers smile at me and try to be helpful. The high school guys who are baggers an stock clerks are most helpful in finding stuff on the shelves I want. When I check out and pay, the boy who bagged my stuff *always, without fail* pushes the cart out the door for me and gets me a chair to sit in. Then he says, "do you want me to call Jeff (the cab driver) to come and get you or do you want to call yourself?" When the cab arrives, *he* puts the stuff in the trunk or the backseat, and thanks me for shopping at Marvins. When is the last time Walmart ever did anything like that? PAT] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:28:29 EST From: TELECOM Digest Editor Subject: Sorry About the Explosion Issue 555 went out originally ONCE at 2:04 AM Eastern time. Then early Friday afternoon it went out again, and again, and again, and again, and again. Some testing was going on here which caused the problem. I am sorry. PAT ------------------------------ TELECOM Digest is an electronic journal devoted mostly but not exclusively to telecommunications topics. It is circulated anywhere there is email, in addition to various telecom forums on a variety of networks such as Compuserve and America On Line, Yahoo Groups, and other forums. It is also gatewayed to Usenet where it appears as the moderated newsgroup 'comp.dcom.telecom'. TELECOM Digest is a not-for-profit, mostly non-commercial educational service offered to the Internet by Patrick Townson. All the contents of the Digest are compilation-copyrighted. You may reprint articles in some other media on an occasional basis, but please attribute my work and that of the original author. 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