From editor@telecom-digest.org Thu Jul 15 01:53:22 2004 Received: (from ptownson@localhost) by massis.lcs.mit.edu (8.11.6p3/8.11.3) id i6F5rMs29041; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:53:22 -0400 (EDT) From: editor@telecom-digest.org Message-Id: <200407150553.i6F5rMs29041@massis.lcs.mit.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: massis.lcs.mit.edu: ptownson set sender to editor@telecom-digest.org using -f To: ptownson Approved: patsnewlist Subject: TELECOM Digest V23 #332 TELECOM Digest Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:53:00 EDT Volume 23 : Issue 332 Inside This Issue: Editor: Patrick A. Townson Apple Ships New AirPort Express With AirTunes (Monty Solomon) Re: Getting out of Norvergence Contracts (Paul Vader) Re: Getting out of Norvergence Contracts (Lisa Hancock) Norvergence Question (Billy Wickline) Norvergence (Ron Hubbard) The Offline Wifi Hotspot Directory is Back (Riverwalk Mobile) Long Distance; How to Figure Out Best Current Promotion (Don Saklad) Re: Power of the Net in Next Election (ranck@vt.edu) Re: DECT - Telephony (Desk) Re: Death Penalty Applies to Top Posters? (Matt Ackeret) Virtual PBX competitors (John Bartley) Re: Tap Into Neighbors' WiFi? Why Not, Some Say (Hammond of Texas) Last Thoughts: Why Does it Make a Difference? (Lisa Minter) All contents here are copyrighted by Patrick Townson and the individual writers/correspondents. Articles may be used in other journals or newsgroups, provided the writer's name and the Digest are included in the fair use quote. By using -any name or email address- included herein for -any- reason other than responding to an article herein, you agree to pay a hundred dollars to the recipients of the email. =========================== Addresses herein are not to be added to any mailing list, nor to be sold or given away without explicit written consent. Chain letters, viruses, porn, spam, and miscellaneous junk are definitely unwelcome. We must fight spam for the same reason we fight crime: not because we are naive enough to believe that we will ever stamp it out, but because we do not want the kind of world that results when no one stands against crime. Geoffrey Welsh =========================== See the bottom of this issue for subscription and archive details and the name of our lawyer; other stuff of interest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:25:50 -0400 From: Monty Solomon Subject: Apple Ships New AirPort Express With AirTunes Over 80,000 Pre-orders for World's First 802.11g Mobile Base Station CUPERTINO, Calif., July 14 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Apple(R) today announced it has begun shipping AirPort Express(TM), the world's first 802.11g mobile base station that features wireless Internet connections and USB printing that can be used at home or on the road to bring wireless freedom to hotel rooms with broadband connections. AirPort Express also features both analog and digital audio outputs that can be connected to a home stereo, and together with AirTunes(TM) music networking software gives users a simple and inexpensive way to wirelessly stream music from iTunes(R) on their Mac(R) or PC to any room in the house. Apple has received more than 80,000 pre-orders for AirPort Express, which was introduced last month. - http://finance.lycos.com/home/news/story.asp?story=42487099 ------------------------------ From: pv+usenet@pobox.com (Paul Vader) Subject: Re: Getting out of Norvergence Contracts Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:22:39 -0000 Organization: Inline Software Creations nrackeertu@cliornuwta.mailexpire.com (N. Rakeertu) writes: > It seems to me that the key here is the relationship between the > leasing companies and Norvergence. If the leasing companies knew that It's not a lease, at least no Norv customer has said it was. * * PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something like corkscrews. ------------------------------ From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Jeff nor Lisa) Subject: Re: Getting out of Norvergence Contracts Date: 14 Jul 2004 13:34:19 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com nrackeertu@cliornuwta.mailexpire.com (N. Rakeertu) wrote > It seems to me that the key here is the relationship between the > leasing companies and Norvergence. If the leasing companies knew that > Norvergence was wildly inflating the value of the equipment (and it > seems likely that they did) Playing devil's advocate here -- wasn't the customer not only leasing a physical box, but also a service that was in essence paid in advance? Also, was the box and service the collateral for the lease, or was it the customer's own credit? I really think the issue hinges on the exit clauses, if any. What happens, for example, if a customer goes out of business (or business is greatly reduced) and no longer needs the service? Are they still stuck with the full lease? I would think a lease would also include performance clauses to protect the customer. If you lease a new car and three months into it the engine blows up, are you still responsible for the terms of the lease? > The customers have plenty of defenses against Norvergence Why would they? The company went broke. Companies do that all the time and anyone who is owed money (customer or creditor) has to get in line at bankruptcy court and file a claim. If you were to buy a new machine and the manufacturer goes broke, you as the customer are stuck if you need warranty repairs -- the manufacturer is gone and there is no one around to fix it for you. It is for these reasons that certain critical financial companies are protected by the government or insurace (including insurance companies themselves). Bank despositors are insured by the FDIC. Pensions are covered (in the past, if your employer went broke, your pension was gone). Sometimes industries cover for each other, such as honoring of airline tickets. But everyday business transactions are not so protected. You often hear sad tales of people who pay a big deposit and book a wedding hall only for the hall to go broke, leaving them no place to have their wedding and out all the money. It is for all these reasons that people must be careful with whom they do business with, especially when it involves a lot of money or a critical service (and telephones are a critical service). Sometimes even reputable long standing companies go broke. But usually such companies do so honorably with at least enough cash so that employees are paid and prepaid accounts are covered. When the Penn Central railroad went broke, employees continued to be paid and the trains never stopped running. It was primarily the investors who got burned (though some suppliers did as well.) Other troubled companies sell out on their own, selling their customer assets and obligations to a competitor so the customers continue to get served. > I think that at some point in the proceedings the leasing companies > HAD TO KNOW that Norvergence was selling the customers a pig in a > poke. But was it really doing that? Maybe the business model just failed. Maybe the company stole the money. In either case, the leasing companies wouldn't know that until too late. > Yet the leasing companies must have known that the true value of the > equipment was in most cases less than $5,000. Thus I think it might > be argued that the leasing companies were guilty of attempted > insurance fraud by requiring greatly excess insurance on equipment > that they knew (or should have known) wasn't worth anywhere near > what they leased it for. That is questionable. Insurance companies do not pay more than the actual value (either depreciated or replacement depending on your policy) regardless of how much you insure it for. If you buy a beat up old car for $500 and insure it as worth $100,000, you'll still only get $500 regardless of what you paid in premiums. Insurance companies always warn not to overinsure. > What needs to happen here, in my view, is that the customers of the > various leasing companies ... need to band together and file class > action lawsuits against them. It depends on the amount of individual losses. For some, the time, effort, aggravation, and legal fees wouldn't be worth it. For others, it might be a good idea, although there is a burden of proof. One must know the general leasing law to define the duties of the leasing companies as well as obviously the contract with the customer. In the event that actual fraud (intentional deception) is found, then the district attorney should be brought in. ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: Billy Wickline Subject: Norvergence Question Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:02:33 -0700 Hello, I run the Accounting Department for a small business in San Diego. I realize the forum has been flooded with questions on this issue, but I have not seen this specific situation posted yet, and was wondering if anyone could offer their input. We signed the contract for ECD and whatnot on 6/23/04. Due to vacations and whatnot, the matrix box was not going to be installed until 7/7/04. Obviously, on the 5th we received a call stating that all "Unlimited Calling Circuitry was on hold for an indeterminable amount of time". Obviously, with the bankruptcy I don't feel like waiting around to figure out how long. Anyways, the equipment was never delivered, and from what I can tell they did not begin pulling our long distance carriers. I have advised the receiving people not to accept any shipments that look like they could be telephones, or coming from NorVergence. My thought process is that if we never accept the technology, we cannot rent it per the terms of the contract. Since we have not received any of the technology, are we "safer" than most companies already into the term? Any thoughtful input would be much appreciated. Should I tell the bank to stop automatic withdrawals from NorVergence? Can they legally charge me for equipment NEVER received or used? Thanks for your time ... Billy Wickline IT / Accounting Associate AES Due Diligence, Inc. 4909 Murphy Canyon Rd. Suite 301 San Diego, CA 92123 Phone: 858-569-0211 Fax: 858-569-0275 ------------------------------ From: Ron Hubbard Subject: Norvergence Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:21:29 -0500 Patrick, I saw your thread on-line and I am interested in seeing the article you spoke of. We are an Agency for SBC and have many customers locked into the scam that Norvergence was pulling off. We can take care of their dial tone, LD and wireless but I'm assisting several owners that are trying to piece together as much on them as possible to get out of the bank note. If you could forward the link (the one on the thread timed out) I would appreciate it. And if you have any other information that could help these small business owners we would appreciate it. Thanks, Ron Hubbard Southwestern Integrators CEO 210) 564-0022 Voice 210) 590-4676 Fax ron@southwesternintegrators.com ------------------------------ From: asnicholasjr@comcast.net (Riverwalk Mobile) Subject: The Offline Wifi Hotspot Directory is Back Date: 14 Jul 2004 20:44:45 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com We've updated it and will begin delivering at no charge to registered subscribers (we don't sell or rent our list!) monthly again. Thousands of locations throughout North America listed ... able to access on your PC, laptop, Palm OS or PocketPC device. www.riverwalkmobile.com ------------------------------ From: Don Saklad Subject: Long Distance; How to Figure Best Current Promotion Offered Date: 15 Jul 2004 00:06:32 -0400 Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science For your Cambridge Massachusetts residential wall wired telephone line, what is the best current promotion offered for a long distance carrier? ------------------------------ From: ranck@vt.edu Subject: Re: Power of the Net in Next Election Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:56:14 UTC Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia, USA Nick Landsberg wrote: > - No. I would not like this forum turned into a political forum (other > than possibly the politics of stuff such as VOIP) And, I agree. I get enough of that in other non-political fora. > How the various campaigns will use the net will definitely affect the > outcome. But isn't that synonymous about how they use the media in > general to affect the outcome? I would guess that they think of the > net as yet another media outlet. For most practical purposes of a politician the net *is* just another media outlet. It's a lot less controlable in some ways, but with experience the pols will learn to use it for their own agendas. > [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: US Department of Homeland Security > officials are giving very strong consideration to either *postponing > or indefinitly cancelling the presidential election in November* They have no legal standing to do so. I know they are asking to have a law passed to enable them, but they would need a Constitutional amendment to actually be able to do this. That certainly isn't going to happen. I doubt that Congress will even consider the idea in a serious way. > Bush has come to the conclusion that al Qaeda terrorists are planning > a large scale attack 'intended to disrupt the democratic process.' While I don't think Bush would exactly welcome such an attack close to the election, I do think something like that would almost guarantee his re-election. Al Qaeda don't seem to be the brightest bulbs on the tree, so they might actually believe that another upset like in Spain would occur. They would be wrong to believe that. Bill Ranck Blacksburg, Va. ------------------------------ From: desk.exp@skynet.be (Desk) Subject: Re: DECT - Telephony Date: 14 Jul 2004 10:27:47 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com desk.exp@skynet.be (Desk) wrote in message news:: > Situation: > I have a PABX connected to the telephone network. This PABX is sending > the incoming calls to my DECT's on my desk. > Problem: > When somebody calls we most of the time the handsets are ringing, but > sometimes when I pick up the handset the conversation is disconnected > immediately when I pick up the phone. > We changed every component, but the problem is still there. > What can be the reason for this disconnect? What do I need to > investigate? > [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: I wonder if your two problems described > above, (1) phone 'rings' but you get no audible signal and (2) pick up > a phone and the conversation in progress gets disconnected are somehow > related. Are the two problems both on the same installation? Did you > swap out the components after (1), or (2) or both? PAT] Indeed the problems are on the same installation. The components are swapped on both situations. ------------------------------ From: mattack@vax.hanford.org (Matt Ackeret) Subject: Re: Death Penalty Applies to Top Posters? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:46:10 UTC Organization: Apple Computer, Inc In article , Jack Decker wrote: > Pardon me for being clueless, but what the heck is a "top-poster"? I > hope I'm not the only one who didn't get that. > Jack > [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: A 'top poster' is someone who reprints > the entire message (to which he is replying) at the top then prints > his reply below that rather than putting his reply first and then > follows up with a few pertinent tidbits of the message being replied > to. You have it backwards. Top-posting is when someone puts their *reply* at the top, and quotes the entire message below. It makes replies much harder to read, because we read English top-down, and it just makes more sense to read the edited quotes for context, then the new content afterwards. If most people who insist on top-posting would simply _remove_ the original message, the problem would largely be solved, because most people who top-post are not directly responding to specific points in the original message anyway. top-posting: It's just a bad idea. ------------------------------ From: John Bartley Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:36:38 -0800 Subject: Virtual PBX Competitors Who are the major competitors to Virtual PBX, for folks who don't want to maintain their own phone switch? Anyone here have experience with the Virtual PBX service? Thank you kindly. John Bartley K7AAY Talk More, Pay Less with Net2Phone Direct(R), up to 1500 minutes free! http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?143 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:43:04 -0700 From: Hammond of Texas Subject: Re: Tap Into Neighbors' WiFi? Why Not, Some Say William Warren wrote: > And, since you choose to self-annoint yourself the expert, just which > network is yours? Please, email me off-list and supply the details of > your annual budget, the number of IT staff, the number of stations, > and the number of nodes. (Starbucks and your mother's house don't > count, sorry). I'll summarize by saying that my resume includes the titles CIO and VP, which means that a big part of my job was convincing "real world businessmen" like you that security was a very real concern and that they ignored it at their peril. I've heard your mindless rationale before, ad nauseum. It still defies logic, and bespeaks a dangerous ignorance and/or a greed unique that of the compulsive gambler. ------------------------------ From: Lisa Minter Subject: Last Thought: Why Does it Matter? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:39:58 -0500 I wanted to share with you one of my favorite stories of the boy on the beach with starfish. This comes from today's issue of Meridian Magazine, an online journal for LDS people and their friends. A well-known author was vacationing on a beautiful coast. One morning, very early, he was walking along the beach. In the distance he saw a lone figure dancing. Fascinated by this celebration of the dawn, he moved closer. It was then he realized that the young man was not dancing, but was picking objects up from the beach and tossing them out into the sea with a graceful movement. As he approached the young man, he saw that he was throwing starfish. "Why in the world are you throwing starfish into the water?" he asked. "If the starfish are still on the beach when the tide goes out and the sun rises higher in the sky, they will die," replied the young man as he continued tossing them out to sea. "That's ridiculous! There are thousands of miles of beach and millions of starfish. You can't really believe that what you're doing could possibly make a difference?" the observer countered. The young man picked up another starfish, paused thoughtfully, and remarked as he tossed it out into the waves, "It makes a difference to this one." *** FAIR USE NOTICE. This message contains copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. This Internet discussion group is making it available without profit to group members who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information in their efforts to advance the understanding of literary, educational, political, and economic issues, for non-profit research and educational purposes only. I believe that this constitutes a 'fair use' of the copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Law. If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use,' you must obtain permission from the copyright owner, in this instance, Meridian Magazine, an online daily publica- tion for LDS people and their friends. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ------------------------------ TELECOM Digest is an electronic journal devoted mostly but not exclusively to telecommunications topics. It is circulated anywhere there is email, in addition to various telecom forums on a variety of networks such as Compuserve and America On Line, Yahoo Groups, and other forums. It is also gatewayed to Usenet where it appears as the moderated newsgroup 'comp.dcom.telecom'. TELECOM Digest is a not-for-profit, mostly non-commercial educational service offered to the Internet by Patrick Townson. All the contents of the Digest are compilation-copyrighted. You may reprint articles in some other media on an occasional basis, but please attribute my work and that of the original author. Contact information: Patrick Townson/TELECOM Digest Post Office Box 50 Independence, KS 67301 Phone: 620-402-0134 Fax 1: 775-255-9970 Fax 2: 530-309-7234 Fax 3: 208-692-5145 Email: editor@telecom-digest.org Subscribe: telecom-subscribe@telecom-digest.org Unsubscribe:telecom-unsubscribe@telecom-digest.org This Digest is the oldest continuing e-journal about telecomm- unications on the Internet, having been founded in August, 1981 and published continuously since then. Our archives are available for your review/research. We believe we are the oldest e-zine/mailing list on the internet in any category! URL information: http://telecom-digest.org Anonymous FTP: mirror.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives/archives/ (or use our mirror site: ftp.epix.net/pub/telecom-archives) Email <==> FTP: telecom-archives@telecom-digest.org Send a simple, one line note to that automated address for a help file on how to use the automatic retrieval system for archives files. You can get desired files in email. ************************************************************************* * TELECOM Digest is partially funded by a grant from * * Judith Oppenheimer, President of ICB Inc. and purveyor of accurate * * 800 & Dot Com News, Intelligence, Analysis, and Consulting. * * http://ICBTollFree.com, http://1800TheExpert.com * * Views expressed herein should not be construed as representing * * views of Judith Oppenheimer or ICB Inc. * ************************************************************************* ICB Toll Free News. Contact information is not sold, rented or leased. One click a day feeds a person a meal. Go to http://www.thehungersite.com Copyright 2004 ICB, Inc. and TELECOM Digest. All rights reserved. Our attorney is Bill Levant, of Blue Bell, PA. ************************ DIRECTORY ASSISTANCE JUST 65 CENTS ONE OR TWO INQUIRIES CHARGED TO YOUR CREDIT CARD! REAL TIME, UP TO DATE! SPONSORED BY TELECOM DIGEST AND EASY411.COM SIGN UP AT http://www.easy411.com/telecomdigest ! ************************ --------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, the Digest is funded by gifts from generous readers such as yourself who provide funding in amounts deemed appropriate. Your help is important and appreciated. A suggested donation of fifty dollars per year per reader is considered appropriate. See our address above. Please make at least a single donation to cover the cost of processing your name to the mailing list. If you donate at least fifty dollars per year we will send you our two-CD set of the entire Telecom Archives; this is every word published in this Digest since our beginning in 1981. All opinions expressed herein are deemed to be those of the author. Any organizations listed are for identification purposes only and messages should not be considered any official expression by the organization. End of TELECOM Digest V23 #332 ******************************