From editor@telecom-digest.org Thu Jul 8 19:44:12 2004 Received: (from ptownson@localhost) by massis.lcs.mit.edu (8.11.6p3/8.11.3) id i68NiCa20896; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:44:12 -0400 (EDT) From: editor@telecom-digest.org Message-Id: <200407082344.i68NiCa20896@massis.lcs.mit.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: massis.lcs.mit.edu: ptownson set sender to editor@telecom-digest.org using -f To: ptownson Approved: patsnewlist Subject: TELECOM Digest V23 #325 TELECOM Digest Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:44:00 EDT Volume 23 : Issue 325 Inside This Issue: Editor: Patrick A. Townson Re: How Much Does Bill Gates Know About His Software? (Scott Dorsey) Re: Is There an Official Statement on NorVergence (Michael D. Sullivan) Re: Norvergence - How Do I Get Out (Steven J Sobol) Get Out of Norvergence Deals (Franki Truth) Re: Norvergence Bankruptcy (Dan Pham) Re: Norvergence Bankruptcy (Steven J Sobol) Re: Norvergence Sales Reps (J Kelly) VoIP Could Avoid Usual Rules (VOIP News) Last Laugh! Time to Get Back to the Basics (Lisa Minter) All contents here are copyrighted by Patrick Townson and the individual writers/correspondents. Articles may be used in other journals or newsgroups, provided the writer's name and the Digest are included in the fair use quote. By using -any name or email address- included herein for -any- reason other than responding to an article herein, you agree to pay a hundred dollars to the recipients of the email. =========================== Addresses herein are not to be added to any mailing list, nor to be sold or given away without explicit written consent. Chain letters, viruses, porn, spam, and miscellaneous junk are definitely unwelcome. We must fight spam for the same reason we fight crime: not because we are naive enough to believe that we will ever stamp it out, but because we do not want the kind of world that results when no one stands against crime. Geoffrey Welsh =========================== See the bottom of this issue for subscription and archive details and the name of our lawyer; other stuff of interest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) Subject: Re: How Much Does Bill Gates Know About His Software These Days? Date: 8 Jul 2004 17:39:35 -0400 Organization: Former users of Netcom shell (1989-2000) Paul Vader wrote: > kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes: >> GWBASIC was not the original Microsoft Basic. At the time the IBM PC > You're right of course -- it was the first DOS basic. I'll be danged > if I can come up with a name other than just "Microsoft Basic" - did > the original one have any other name? * I think the original one was probably the KIM-1 integer basic that he sold, many years before the PC. There might have been an even earlier one, though. There was an MBASIC sold for CP/M, and the BASIC-IN-ROM for the PC seemed to have been vaguely based on that. The original BASIC for the PC-DOS was basically a bunch of calls to the BASIC-IN-ROM which did most of the important stuff. And, of course, it would not run on any of the clones which did not have the same ROM set, which is why GWBASIC came along. --scott "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." ------------------------------ From: Michael D. Sullivan Subject: Re: Is There an Official Statement on NorVergence Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:26:00 GMT In article , dor@writeme.com says: > Pat, > I have been told, heard, and read many things about NorVergence's > closure on July 1, 2004. However, NONE OF IT has been something > 'Official' from a court, law enforcement agency, organization, > or, from NorVergence itself. > Is there a website or anything out there that you know of that says > something officially stamped by a court or police agency or bank or > even NorVergence? Have NorVergence's lawyers issued a statement? > Please help. Google news has two stories on it: > Newark telecom files for Chap. 11 > NorVergence in debt to tune of $15 million > Wednesday, July 07, 2004 > by Henry C. Jackson > [Newark] Star-Ledger Staff > NorVergence, a once-hot telecommunications provider, was forced into > bankruptcy court by three creditors who say the Newark company was not > paying its bills. > The involuntary petition for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, filed > late last week but posted online over the weekend, portrayed a company > sinking under millions of dollars of debt. > The move leaves approximately 10,000 customers, mostly small and mid- > sized businesses who use NorVergence for telephone and Internet service, > in limbo. And the news was no better for many of NorVergence's > employees. They were sent home for good last week. > When closely held NorVergence came to town in 2001, the company was > touted as an important source of new jobs in Newark's troubled downtown > area. NorVergence, at its most basic, bought whole telecommunications > service and resold it. > But layoffs and allegations of bounced checks and poor service have > dogged the company. > NorVergence executives have declined to comment on the company's status. > But the filing confirmed speculation that circulated for weeks about the > company's precarious financial status. > The three companies named as creditors -- Popular Leasing USA, of > Ballwin, Mo.; OFC Capital, a division of ALFA Financial, of Roswell, > Ga.; and Partners Equity Capital, of Horsham, Pa. -- have accumulated a > debt of at least $11,625, the threshold needed to file an involuntary > petition for bankruptcy. > But court documents show NorVergence owes $15 million to another > creditor, Denver-based telephone giant Qwest Communications. A hearing > on that claim is scheduled for tomorrow in Newark. > "We have a wholesale relationship with NorVergence in which we provide > them with services, and we will continue to provide the company service > until the bankruptcy court allows us to discontinue service," said > Claire Mylott, a spokeswoman for Qwest. > "We believe that NorVergence has an obligation to pay all of its > outstanding obligations, including those to Qwest." > Under an involuntary bankruptcy petition, the targeted company has 30 > days to respond. If the company disputes the allegations by the > creditors, a trial will be scheduled. > NorVergence's problems apparently came to a head Thursday when, > according to several former employees, company Chief Executive Peter > Salzano announced the company had filed for bankruptcy. When Salzano > delivered the news to NorVergence's employees, he told many it would be > their last day of work at the company. The company declined to say how > many workers were let go. > Salzano was distressed as he moved through NorVergence's offices on 550 > Broad St. announcing the news, said Ernest Slyman, an employee of the > company since September. As he made the announcement, people grew upset, > Slyman said, and "there were a lot of demands, lots of shouting." > A man in a NorVergence polo shirt blocked the door to the company's > third-floor office on Thursday afternoon, refusing to comment. Former > employees poured out of the office, though some carried boxes filled > with sundry items from the office such as staplers and CD racks. These > former employees said they'd been told the company had filed for some > form of bankruptcy. > After working at NorVergence for three months, Quadriyyah Griffin, 25, > was fired Thursday. She had not been paid in two weeks. > "In a way, we saw it coming," she said. "But you didn't want to believe > it." > Dan Baldwin also saw signs that NorVergence was floundering. The founder > of telecomagent.org, a membership Web site that provides industry news > for telecom users, distributors and providers, Baldwin said he long > questioned NorVergence's business plan. > Under that plan, companies signed long-term leases for phone and > Internet services at locked-in rates, much like a fixed-rate mortgage on > a house. But this arrangement would have required a "miracle" to be > profitable, Baldwin said. NorVergence was betting that once a company > was locked in at a certain price, the going wholesale rate for phone and > Internet service would drop, giving NorVergence a profit, he said. That > did not happen, he said. > Still, creditors who provided NorVergence with services were not in a > position turn down new business, because the telecommunications industry > has been battered in recent years, he said. > "When the Golden Goose is knocking out golden eggs, and the ancillary > venders and the leasing companies are having a hard time making money, > the companies are going to put out their hands and turn a blind eye to > the fact that the golden eggs are somewhat stinky," Baldwin said. NorVergence Forced into Bankruptcy Associated Press (July 7, 2004) > NEWARK, N.J. - Telecommunications provider NorVergence has been forced > into bankruptcy court by three creditors who claim the Newark company > isn't paying its bills. > The three creditors - Popular Leasing USA, of Ballwin, Mo.; OFC Capital, > a division of ALFA Financial of Roswell, Ga.; and Partners Equity > Capital, of Horsham, Pa. - have debt with Norvergence of at least > $11,625, the threshold needed to file an involuntary bankruptcy > petition. > NorVergence owes another $15 million to Denver-based Qwest > Communications. > With an involuntary bankruptcy petition, the targeted company has 30 > days to respond. If the allegations of the creditors are disputed, a > trial is scheduled. > According to several former employees who spoke with The Star-Ledger of > Newark, NorVergence Chief Executive Officer Peter Salzano told workers > last week that the company had filed for bankruptcy. Most of the > company's 1,200 employees were then let go. > NorVergence has about 10,000 customers, mostly small and mid-sized > businesses. Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD, USA Delete nospam from my address and it won't work. [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Fair-use applies to these articles presented here by Mike Sullivan: *** FAIR USE NOTICE. This message contains copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. This Internet discussion group is making it available without profit to group members who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information in their efforts to advance the understanding of literary, educational, political, and economic issues, for non-profit research and educational purposes only. I believe that this constitutes a 'fair use' of the copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Law. If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use,' you must obtain permission from the copyright owner, in this instance Newark Star-Ledger and Associated Press. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml PAT] ------------------------------ From: Steven J Sobol Subject: Re: Norvergence - How Do I Get Out Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:47:06 -0500 TELECOM Digest Editor noted in response to Black Ninja : >> Yet bank is willing to carry the paper for a multi-year >> thousands of dollars deal *based on fraud* against end-users > The solution that Norvergence was offering was not fraudulent. It was > the poor management policies at the top that prevented it from > working. The banks had no way of knowing that NorV would not pay the > bills. I agree that the banks are not liable. I disagree that the solution that Norvergence was offering wasn't fraudulent. Norvergence's leaders didn't MISTAKENLY mismanage to the point that they owed, what, $8 million to a large LEC that they obviously had no intention of paying? > And to answer your question, Steven, it feels great to be without a > job. It is a well deserved vacation. I had earned 6 figures by > mid-year, I know that I did everything in my power to aid my > customers. Wow. I'm *really* impressed -- you're actually offering information instead of insults. > I am proud to say that I worked with some of the best, > most honest, telecom sales people in the business. I am also very > confident that these sales people would sell circles around the > unscrupulous agents that tend to frequent these boards. You think > that Norvergence was dirty? Tell me you've never heard of an agent > stealing deals, or misquoting price. Telecom is not the clean white > sheet that people are making it out to be, and Norvergence is not the > only stain. OK. First, let me say that I believe that the SALES REPS were probably on the level. Yes, you have some bad apples in any bunch, but most of the salesforce was probably out to make an honest buck. My problem with front-line sales and customer service reps is when they're presented information and then ignore it and parrot the company line. (Like you did.) And I understand how the industry is, it's full of bloodthirsty sharks. I used to run ISPs for a living. :) The ILECs are horrible. The CLECs aren't much better. > [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Freeze all accounts payable with > regards to Norvergence. Advise bank to either go straight to > collection agency or court as they wish. PAT] Pat, how about advising people to talk to their attorneys instead of giving them advice which will get them sued and will NOT relieve them of their debt to the banks? Please? Pat also wrote: > Look at bank's attitude toward someone who wants a lousy Visa Merchant > account. Credit checks, a complete investigation, etc. all so that > you can send them a few dollars now and then on a Visa transaction. I've never been asked for anything other than a credit check on a merchant app, and the reason they do a credit check is because the possibility exists that in a given months you may have more chargebacks than sales and end up owing the bank money. JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/ Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED) Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids. [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: But obviously the 'probability' that *someone* would owe the bank a lot of money didn't seem to impress the bank where buying all of Norvergence's worthless paper was concerned did it? Either bank was an idiot or bank was a charlatan, pick one. Either way I don't think small businesses should have to carry the load. I still suggest investigating the ownership and/or management of the banks which were involved, looking for common ownership/managment, etc. The end-users did not select the 'bank which would lend them money', Norvergence chose who the small handful of banks would be. It is alledged there are about ten thousand Norvergence customers out there on the hook. I can assure you there are not an equal number of banks out there waiting for their money; probably a half dozen banks at most. Norvergence hand-picked them (the banks); I wonder why? It would really be hysterical if Salzano showed up on the board of directors of any of those banks, or some other executives of Norver- gence had associations with those banks, wouldn't it? Steve, would you still sit there and wimper about 'better pay your bills or you will get sued' if you found that to be the case? I will agree end-users should make inquiry of their attornies on this, **but until they get to that point, and their attorney instructs them otherwise in the matter** my suggestion is still to freeze all accounts payable regards Norvergence. It certainly won't hurt bank to sit and wait for their money awhile. And please! no discussion about how 'your credit will get ruined if you do not pay on time.' About two years ago, Walmart unilaterily declared that creditors would start getting paid in 45-60 days instead of 30 days as previously. Walmart does as they please with their vendors/creditors, why shouldn't you? Just freeze your accounts payable to Norvergence banks at least until the stench clears out a little, if it ever does. PAT] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:05:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Franki Truth Subject: Get Out of Norvergence Deals If anyone need to get out of Norvergence Deal and has signed it within the last 90 days. I am almost 100% sure that anything that happened within 90 days would be paid back to the bank and you would be able to get out. ------------------------------ From: csx130mph@yahoo.com (Dan Pham) Subject: Re: Norvergence Bankrupt Date: 8 Jul 2004 08:41:08 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Will any criminal charges be filed against Norvergence's executives? William Van Hefner wrote in message news:: > Newark, NJ, July 7, 2004 (TheDigest.Com) - Norvergence is bankrupt, > involuntarily. > On July 2nd, three creditors of the company Popular Leasing USA, OFC > Capital, and Partners Equity Capital filed an involuntary Chapter 11 > Bankruptcy petition against the VOIP reseller. This move apparently > came only minutes before its underlying provider Qwest was to serve > the company with notice that it was terminating service to its > customers for non-payment. > In documents filed with the court, Qwest described Norvergence as > being continually delinquent in paying their bills, nearly since the > company's inception. Qwest claims that the New Jersey company owes it > $18,442,550.53 in past due long distance bills, and that it has > hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment on loan to them > that it wants back. > Qwest has filed (and been granted) an expedited hearing, and has made > a motion to the court to terminate service to Norvergence's > customers. In its filing, Qwest seems to indicate that its motion to > disconnect the customers should be granted because Norvergence has no > reasonable chance of surviving the bankruptcy. Without having seen any > financial documents, that is hard to say. However, many of the > indicators we have seen lead us to suspect that this case will be > converted from a Chapter 11 (reorganization) to a Chapter 7 > (liquidation) before this is all over. > Strangely enough, in order to bolster its argument that Norvergence > was headed for the scrap heap of telecom history, Qwest repeatedly > quoted TheDigest.Com in bankruptcy documents. It also went on to state > that Newark, New Jersey police were called to the company when unpaid > employees threatened to "loot" Norvergence's offices of computers and > office equipment. > Norvergence had missed a $8.5 million payment to Qwest on June 30th, > which prompted Qwest to deliberate serving notice to the company that > it would terminate its services. Unfortunately, Qwest waited too > long. Before it had a chance to notify Norvergence of its impending > shut-off, other creditors filed the involuntary bankruptcy document, > preventing Qwest from pulling the plug on thousands of Norvergence > customers. Qwest claims that it is costing the company $166,000 for > each day it continues providing Norvergence customers with "free" > service. > Norvergence is also under investigation by the New Jersey Department > of Labor for allegedly bouncing paychecks. When it fired over 1,000 > workers last week, the company told its employees that they would not > be receiving their paychecks that day for the past two weeks work, nor > would they be paid for any past due salaries owed. The company has > blamed its financial problems on lack of funding from investors. > Based upon past rulings, we find it unlikely that Qwest will be > allowed to disconnect Norvergence customers anytime soon. The carrier > would most likely need to convince the court that the case should be > converted into a Chapter 7 filing first, and that will likely take > some time. Still, Norvergence customers are quite obviously dialing on > borrowed time, and should immediately begin looking for a new > telecommunications provider. In our opinion, the odds of Norvergence > successfully reorganizing are almost zero. > To add insult to injury, most of Norvergence's customers are now stuck > with multi-year leases on equipment supplied by the company, but whose > debt was actually sold to outside financing companies. Technically, > the customer owes a debt to the financing company, and not to > Norvergence. Customers are still on the hook to pay the financing > companies for years to come, even if no service of any kind is > provided. We suspect that Norvergence made most of its revenues not > from selling telecommunications services, but from the sale of > equipment leases to finance companies instead. > We have made all court documents from the Norvergence bankruptcy available > for download at http://www.thedigest.com/docs/norvergence/ > William Van Hefner Editor - TheDigest.Com postmaster@thedigest.com > http://www.thedigest.com/current/ ------------------------------ From: Steven J Sobol Subject: Re: Norvergence Bankrupt Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:54:38 -0500 William Van Hefner wrote: > Qwest has filed (and been granted) an expedited hearing, and has made > a motion to the court to terminate service to Norvergence's > customers. In its filing, Qwest seems to indicate that its motion to > disconnect the customers should be granted because Norvergence has no > reasonable chance of surviving the bankruptcy. Without having seen any > financial documents, that is hard to say. However, many of the > indicators we have seen lead us to suspect that this case will be > converted from a Chapter 11 (reorganization) to a Chapter 7 > (liquidation) before this is all over. If Qwest had any brains (a LEC with brains? ha) they'd try to convince the court to allow them to take over the accounts and start providing service to the Norv ex-customers. After all, most of Norv's customers probably paid on time, or close to it. > customers. Qwest claims that it is costing the company $166,000 for > each day it continues providing Norvergence customers with "free" > service. Then WHY isn't Qwest's sales organization going after the Norv customers for contracts? Duh! JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/ Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / sjsobol@JustThe.net PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED) Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids. ------------------------------ From: J Kelly Subject: Re: Norvergence Sales Reps Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:46:38 -0500 Organization: http://newsguy.com Reply-To: jkelly@newsguy.com On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:46:03 -0500, J Kelly wrote: > On 6 Jul 2004 13:49:40 -0700, unlimitedcallingusa@yahoo.com (Unlimited > Calling) wrote: >> If there are any Norvergence sales reps with deals they want to close, >> this company will pay you at least as much as Norvergence paid you >> maybe more, as soon as the customer is installed. >> You can send your contact info or email directly at >> unlimitedcallingusa@yahoo.com for more info. >> Don't let your deals fall apart, get paid on them and deal with a >> reputable company. > Pat- > I'm not sure why a reputable company would be spamming here and using > a yahoo.com email address. I'm even more baffled by why you allow > this crap on the Digest. > [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Because this is 'be kind to buzzards > week' here at the Digest. I want to make sure the little guys get > their food in the form of other suckers. As I noted in response to > Paul Vader, all the spammer-buzzards are stirred up and flying around > now, starting to eat the remains of the corporate carcass that was > Norvergence. Its their nature; they don't know any better. PAT] But *you* know better than to turn the Digest into a place for spam. [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: You are correct. The half dozen items I got today on this same topic (buzzards coming to pick at the Norvergence carcass with their wares and service offerings, etc) were all sent away; they have started to annoy me also. PAT] ------------------------------ From: VOIP News Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:13:46 -0400 Subject: VoIP Could Avoid Usual Rules Reply-To: VoIPnews@yahoogroups.com http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,116813,00.asp Congress considers keeping Internet telephony regulation to a minimum, to encourage the technology. Mark S. Sullivan, Medill News Service WASHINGTON -- Voice-over-IP services could escape many of the fees and regulations usually imposed on telecommunications services, under a Congressional proposal. VoIP and other Internet-based communications would be treated as an entirely new category of telecom service, under a bill announced Tuesday by members of the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet. "Our bill establishes Advanced Internet Communications Services as a unique form of services. That removes the debate that exists in the states and in the industry as to whether to classify AICS as an information service or a telecommunications service," says Representative Clifford Stearns (R-Florida), one of the bill's sponsors. Beyond hearings, however, action on the bill is unlikely to take place until the 109th Congress convenes next year. Full story at: http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,116813,00.asp How to Distribute VoIP Throughout a Home: http://michigantelephone.mi.org/distribute.html If you live in Michigan, subscribe to the MI-Telecom group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MI-Telecom/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:39:18 PDT From: Lisa Minter Subject: Last Laugh! Time to Get Back to the Basics Rick, fresh out of accounting school, went to a interview for a good paying job. The company boss asked various questions about him and his education, but then asked him, "What is three times seven?" Rick replied it was twenty-two. After he left, he double-checked it on his calculator (he *knew* he should have taken it to the interview!) and realized he wouldn't get the job. About two weeks later, he got a letter that said he was hired for the job! He was not one to look a gift horse in the mouth, but was still very curious. The next day, he went in and asked why he got the job, even though he got such a simple question wrong. The boss shrugged and said, "Well, you were the closest." ------------------------------ TELECOM Digest is an electronic journal devoted mostly but not exclusively to telecommunications topics. It is circulated anywhere there is email, in addition to various telecom forums on a variety of networks such as Compuserve and America On Line, Yahoo Groups, and other forums. It is also gatewayed to Usenet where it appears as the moderated newsgroup 'comp.dcom.telecom'. TELECOM Digest is a not-for-profit, mostly non-commercial educational service offered to the Internet by Patrick Townson. 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If you donate at least fifty dollars per year we will send you our two-CD set of the entire Telecom Archives; this is every word published in this Digest since our beginning in 1981. All opinions expressed herein are deemed to be those of the author. Any organizations listed are for identification purposes only and messages should not be considered any official expression by the organization. End of TELECOM Digest V23 #325 ******************************