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TELECOM Digest Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:30:00 EDT Volume 24 : Issue 279 Inside This Issue: Editor: Patrick A. Townson Power Strips for Home Networks (Fred Atkinson) Re: DSL Speed (Robert Bonomi) Re: ISP Hunting (Julian Thomas) Re: ISP Hunting (Fred Atkinson) Re: XO Communications (Steven Lichter) Re: XO Communications (Tony P.) Re: 700-555-4141 Does Not Work (John McHarry) Re: 700-555-4141 Does Not Work (Fred Atkinson) Re: Pod Slurping Dangerous to Your Company (Tony P.) Re: Monitor/Recorder for Residential Power Line Outages? (J McHarry) Re: '80' Country Code (Joseph) Re: Is it Possible to Buy a Cell Phone With no Plan? (John McHarry) Re: Is it Possible to Buy a Cell Phone With no Plan? (Joseph) Re: Is it Possible to Buy a Cell Phone With no Plan? (NOTvalid@Xmas) Re: Bell Divestiture (Lisa Hancock) Re: Bell Divestiture (Robert Bonomi) Re: Bell Divestiture (Tony P.) Telecom and VOIP (Voice over Internet Protocol) Digest for the Internet. All contents here are copyrighted by Patrick Townson and the individual writers/correspondents. Articles may be used in other journals or newsgroups, provided the writer's name and the Digest are included in the fair use quote. By using -any name or email address- included herein for -any- reason other than responding to an article herein, you agree to pay a hundred dollars to the recipients of the email. =========================== Addresses herein are not to be added to any mailing list, nor to be sold or given away without explicit written consent. Chain letters, viruses, porn, spam, and miscellaneous junk are definitely unwelcome. We must fight spam for the same reason we fight crime: not because we are naive enough to believe that we will ever stamp it out, but because we do not want the kind of world that results when no one stands against crime. Geoffrey Welsh =========================== See the bottom of this issue for subscription and archive details and the name of our lawyer; other stuff of interest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:49:42 PDT From: Fred Atkinson <fatkinson@mishmash.com> Subject: Power Strips for Home Networks Reply-To: fatkinson@mishmash.com I suspect that some of you are experiencing this or have already solved it. So, maybe one of you can tell me where I can find something to solve this problem. I've accumulated so many devices on my home network (and some devices that are not network related as well) that power strips are an issue. Most of these devices have the big 'calculator charger' type of power supply that plugs directly into the AC outlet. I've been looking for some type of power strip that has eight or more outlets that are spaced far enough apart that you can plug all of these things into them without overlapping each other. Searching the Internet, I've not found anything like this. The best is one of those long power strips that you usually install on the wall as a permanent part of the house electrical system. I think there might be something much better. Or maybe someone has a better suggestion. Any ideas? Fred [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: What I have done is use the 'normal' size power strips, and daisy-chained three of them together. That is, the final outlet on one of them is used to feed the next strip, etc. Lisa's mother came in one day to do her housecleaning work and screamed at me saying "you are going to burn the whole house down like that!" That would not surprise me. PAT] ------------------------------ From: bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) Subject: Re: DSL Speed Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 01:09:19 -0000 Organization: Widgets, Inc. In article <telecom24.278.13@telecom-digest.org>, Choreboy <choreboyREMOVE@localnet.com> wrote: > Robert Bonomi wrote: >> In article <telecom24.276.9@telecom-digest.org>, >> Choreboy <choreboyREMOVE@localnet.com> wrote: >>> A relative has a farm. His phone service comes in on 700 yards of >>> ordinary telephone cable buried along his driveway. Last week he got >>> Bellsouth DSL. It comes in on the same conductors as before, but I've >>> seen speeds fifty times faster than dialup. >>> I thought 56K was the fastest speed possible with conventional >>> telephone cable. How can DSL be so much faster with the same old >>> cable? >> You thought 'wrongly'. <grin> >> "56k" is the theoretical maximum speed you can get across a (mostly >> analog) POTS service circuit. The limit is not in the wiring, per se, >> but in the _equipment_ (the 'switch' in the telco 'central office') >> that that signal has to pass through. "Voice" calls, including data >> modem, and fax, over POTS PSTN, leave your house as analog signals. at >> the telco, the first thing that happens is that they are converted to >> a _digital_ data-stream. this conversion is done at a rate of 8000 >> samples/second., with 8-bits of data 'precision' for each sample. >> This means that there is 64,000 bits/second of digital data flowing >> through the switch for a voice line. You cannot send more data than >> that via _analog_ origin signalling, And, to achieve that 64,000 >> bit/second, your signalling must exactly match (and be synchronized >> with) the intervals used by the analog-to-digital conversion gear in >> the C.O. If there is _precisely_one_ analog/digital conversion in the >> path, then, with some fancy games on the 'digital' end, you can come >> 'close' to that 64,000 bit/sec limit, _without_ requiring the exact >> synchronization. > If 56K is the theoretical limit usually given, does this mean only > seven bits are useful to the customer? It seems as if modems > negotiate speeds in increments of 4% or so. I wonder why that is. The answers to *that* are long, involved, and _very_ technical. A vastly over-simplified explanation is that an A/D conversion has a theoretical best accuracy of +/- 1/2 bit. meaning that there is an inherent error range of a full one-bit worth >> The _wire_, itself, is capable of passing a much broader range of >> signals. *If* the signal doesn't have to go through the 'voice' >> switching equipment, you are not restricted by the limits of _that_ >> equipment. > On dialup, the farm couldn't negotiate modem speeds quite as fast as I > could in town. I assumed the limitation was in the wire. It is, and it isn't. How far can you yell, and be heard? How far can you talk on a radio, and be heard? The technology used makes a big difference. <grin> > That's why I was amazed to see that DSL seems to use the wire in the > same way as dialup. Was I wrong to think the reason dialup data > rates were slower at the farm was that the wire to the CO is longer? "Sort-of". It wasn't the actual _length_ of the wire. If you build the wire differently, you will get different effects over the same length of wire. One of the things that goes on, when you run a _pair_ of wires for any distance is that there is a capacitance between the two wires. this is proportional to the length of the run, inversely proportional to the distance between the wires, the thickness of the insulation, and a number of other factors. Capacitance between the signal-carrying leads has the effect of 'blurring' the signal. which puts a limit on how fast you can "effectively" change signal levels, to pass information from one end to the other. The _methodology_ used to accomplish the signalling determines where, and to what extent, that 'blurring' degrades the transmission. DSL _does_ suffer degradation with distance, just as analog POTS modems do. If you have 15-18,000 feet of wire between you and the C.O., you will get much slower maximum rates than if you are less than a thousand feet from the C.O. DSL uses a differnt _kind_ of signalling -- which calls for differently designed transmitters and receivers -- to get the higher data rate on the bare wires. >> This is how DSL works, it bypasses the _voice_ switching gear. It >> uses just the 'bare wire' between the telco C.O. and the customer >> premises. The special eqipment in the C.O. puts a *different*kind* >> of signal on the wires, that the "DSL modem" at the customer >> premises understands, and the 'modem' at the customer location does >> 'something similar', to communicate back to that special equimpent >> at the Telco offices. >> Voila! the limitations/restrictions of the telco voice_ switching >> equipment are bypassed, and thus 'not relevant' to this >> communication. > What's the downside for the telco? With the right pricing, I think > they could tap a huge market for increased bandwidth. Connected to _what_? "Multi-megabit bandwidth" to the C.O. is -useless-, unless there is "something interesting" to connect to. Who needs the capability for a dozen or two (or more) simultaneous voice telephone calls from their house? For anything other than voice, you have to have that 'something else' available for access at the point that that high-capacity circuit from the customer premises terminates. Getting _to_ the C.O. from the customer premises is the 'cheap' part. Whether it is POTS, or DSL, or whatever. Amortizing the equipment over, say, 5 years, you're talking about circa $3-5 dollars/month. The 'wire' cost, amortized over the useful life (50 years+) of the wire pair, is of the same order, maybe a bit lower. All the rest of the money goes towards "what to do with it, _after_ it arrives at the C.O." For voice, to calls to a number in a different C.O, you have to have inter-connects to get the call _to_ that C.O. If there isn't a direct trunk circuit, you have to go through another layer of switches (called "tandems") -- at least one, possibly several -- to get to the destination 'local' switch. 7 figure price-tags, per unit. Same thing connecting to the 'internet' -- you generally have to 'pay somebody' to pass your traffic on to the rest of the world, Costs for that depend on "how much" traffic you have. More traffic, more cost. and bigger, more expensive equipment. ------------------------------ From: Julian Thomas <jt@jt-mj.net> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:16:57 -0400 Subject: Re: ISP Hunting In <20050619061216.5CE9F1501A@massis.lcs.mit.edu>, on 06/19/05 at 02:12 AM, was written: > I'm going to be just outside of Chicago (Skokie, if you must know) for an > unknown period of time and looking to find out what the cheapest way to > get internet access would be. Check out bamnet.net Julian Thomas: jt@jt-mj.net http://jt-mj.net In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Warpstock 2005: Hershey, Pa. October 6-9, 2005 - http://www.warpstock.org -- -- Headline: Energizer Bunny arrested, charged with battery. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:40:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Atkinson <fatkinson@mishmash.com> Subject: Re: ISP Hunting Reply-To: fatkinson@mishmash.com > Don't you want news-server access? That's the most common > deal-breaker for me. It shouldn't be a concern. If the price is cheap enough for an ISP you've chosen and they don't provide a news server, also get a news account at Newsguy http://www.newsguy.com . They have a special plan that they offer one year of news server access for forty dollars. I used them once when a ten dollar a month ISP I was then using dropped their news server without telling anyone. The service was very good. And they add new news groups pretty quickly when you request them. I'm not using them now because my cablemodem provider provides me with news server access. But I'd resort to them in an instant if my provider didn't offer it as part of the package. Regards, Fred ------------------------------ From: Steven Lichter <shlichter@diespammers.com> Reply-To: Die@spammers.com Organization: I Kill Spammers, Inc. (c) 2005 A Rot in Hell Co. Subject: Re: XO Communications Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:39:26 GMT I'm retired from GTE, almost 10 years now so I have been away from it, but to me it there should have been a backup or B side running, besides it was out 7 1/2 hours. It was the company I work for that lost all of their calls coming into Riverside from San Bernardino and a few out of state calls, yet our incoming 800 number worked fine, it had been an AT&T number until we switched companies, so maybe that was still running through them and was not affected by the outage. I think we should go back to Step by Step, much better. Al Gillis wrote: > Well Steven, an outage involving three DS-3s would likely be related > to an OC-3 failure (an OC-3 at ~155 megabits/second will carry three > DS-3s or just over 2,000 voice channels). I'd guess one of two > failure types caused your emotional trauma: Traditional "back hoe > fade" or an OC-3 to DS-3 mux went on "time out" for a while. > For example, at my work we've got several kinds of access -- one > flavor has a small mux (a Fujitsu FLM-150) arranged on a SONET ring to > a companion mux in a nearby CO. That's great, except that both sides > of the SONET ride in the same fiber sheath -- so if it gets dug up > (the aforementioned syndrome of "back hoe fade") down she goes! Also, > of course, if some of the common stuff in either mux (on either end of > the SONET circuit) fails down she goes! > And who knows? Maybe this mux in San Bernardino wasn't even > configured for SONET -- Maybe it was just single ended! > Like many things in life now-a-days, communications is more fragile > than we might expect or like! The only good spammer is a dead one!! Have you hunted one down today? (c) 2005 I Kill Spammers, Inc. A Rot in Hell Co. ------------------------------ From: Tony P. <kd1s@nospamplease.cox.reallynospam.net> Subject: Re: XO Communications Organization: ATCC Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:36:36 -0400 In article <telecom24.278.15@telecom-digest.org>, alg@aracnet.com says: > Well Steven, an outage involving three DS-3s would likely be related > to an OC-3 failure (an OC-3 at ~155 megabits/second will carry three > DS-3s or just over 2,000 voice channels). I'd guess one of two > failure types caused your emotional trauma: Traditional "back hoe > fade" or an OC-3 to DS-3 mux went on "time out" for a while. A backhoe undoubtedly being operated by Backhoe Bob. Apparently at a recent gathering of IT folks involved with the Help America Vote Act this was a common refrain. ------------------------------ From: John McHarry <jmcharry@comcast.net> Subject: Re: 700-555-4141 Does Not Work Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:21:31 GMT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:41:39 -0400, Ted Klugman wrote: > Recently, my long distance carrier (TTI National, somehow a subsidary > of MCI) informed me that they're going to start charging a "monthly > fee" of $1.99. So I decided it was time to switch. > My new carrier's website instructs new users to call 700-555-4141 to > verify when the LD carrier has been changed. I hadn't dialed the > number in quite a while, so for kicks, I dialed it. > "We're sorry, your call can not be completed as dialed." This didn't > happen the last time I tried it (more than a year ago) > (Yes, I tried it with a "1" in front of the number) > So, any thoughts on how I can check who my LD carrier is? That test number was part of the Modified Final Judgment, I believe. If your local carrier is a BOC, tell them to fix it. I ran into this years ago with Bell Atlantic Wireless, and had to write them a letter. They told me to call some guy who fixed it. ------------------------------ From: Fred Atkinson <fatkinson@mishmash.com> Subject: Re: 700-555-4141 Does Not Work Reply-To: fatkinson@mishmash.com Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 03:24:23 GMT On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:41:39 -0400, Ted Klugman <tedklugman@yahoo.no.spam.com.lga.highwinds-media.com> wrote: > Recently, my long distance carrier (TTI National, somehow a subsidary > of MCI) informed me that they're going to start charging a "monthly > fee" of $1.99. So I decided it was time to switch. > My new carrier's website instructs new users to call 700-555-4141 to > verify when the LD carrier has been changed. I hadn't dialed the > number in quite a while, so for kicks, I dialed it. > "We're sorry, your call can not be completed as dialed." This didn't > happen the last time I tried it (more than a year ago) > (Yes, I tried it with a "1" in front of the number) > So, any thoughts on how I can check who my LD carrier is? > TIA Do you have 900, 700, and 976 blocking on your phone? If you do, that explains it completely. Try dialing '00' and see what happens. Fred ------------------------------ From: Tony P. <kd1s@nospamplease.cox.reallynospam.net> Subject: Re: Pod Slurping Dangerous to Your Company Organization: ATCC Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:22:33 -0400 In article <telecom24.278.12@telecom-digest.org>, dcstar@myrealbox.com says: > On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:41:11 -0500, Lisa Minter wrote: >> The thief could even access PCs that require a log-in username/password >> by using a boot CD, a specially-crafted CD that sidesteps log-in >> authentication, said Usher. > Only on the assumption that data is actually on the hard drive, most > major organisations that I know of prohibit storage of any data on a > local hard drive and have it all on more secure network storage. > If they leave data on a local hard drive, and don't lock out booting > from a CD or Floppy (and having the BIOS password protected), then > more fool them. BIOS passwords are only as good as that little CR-2032 lithium battery. Remove or short the battery and kiss passwords goodbye. >> Gartner's 2004 advice would block pod slurping, added Usher, if >> enterprises adopted the research firm's recommendations to lock down >> desktops by disabling USB functionality or Windows' Universal Plug and >> Play. > And stopping booting another OS to bypass that disabling, otherwise it > could be a waste of time. As I showed above, you could remove/short the battery and then boot up Knoppix and copy files to CD-R, USB memory key, etc. ------------------------------ From: John McHarry <jmcharry@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Monitor/Recorder for Residential Power Line Outages? Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:35:37 GMT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:41:55 -0700, AES wrote: > Any have pointers to a gadget that will monitor and log power outages > or glitches on 110V or 220V residential electrical service? > Looking for a home or retail level gadget that will work either > connected to a dedicated computer, or preferably free-standing with > periodic read-out to a computer, logging time and duration of both > longer outages and short glitches (anything long enough to cause > digital clocks and appliance displays to reset). Your best bet is likely to be a UPS. Some of them use their PC link to write a log of when power went out and returned. Mine sends a message to the system terminal (Linux), but that could probably be redirected to a log file. Actually, I think it keeps logs normally, but I have never bothered with them. ------------------------------ From: Joseph <JoeOfSeattle@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: '80' Country Code Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:45:27 -0700 Reply-To: JoeOfSeattle@yahoo.com On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 09:11:42 -0000, bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote: > In article <telecom24.277.1@telecom-digest.org>, Geoff > <nospam@nospam.com> wrote: >> I was looking at my call logs and have an international call from >> Spain and another country. The number for the other country starts >> with '803' but there is no country with an '80' and '803' dialing >> code. Any ideas where the call came from? > Best guess: somewhere around Helsinki, Finland. That is a pretty wild guess considering that country codes beginning with an 8 are usually in the far east. Finland's country code is 358! If it's not a country it may be a certain service. [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Or maybe it was _area code_ 803, which I think is somewhere in the Carolinas? PAT] ------------------------------ From: John McHarry <jmcharry@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Is it Possible to Buy a Cell Phone With no Plan? Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 23:12:49 GMT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:22:37 -0700, FrankBooth wrote: > I'm trying to buy a cell phone WITHOUT A PLAN. I am sending it to a > relative in another country where they will activate it. > So far I have not found a local shopping establishment that sells > them. > Can anyone recommend somewhere online where a cell WITHOUT A PLAN can > be purchased? Is it even possible? Last I knew, which was several years ago, the cellular carriers controlled the distribution of the phones, so you couldn't do that. You might be able to find some way of adding one to an existing plan with pooled minutes so you could use the minutes but give away the phone. The other problem is that most countries use GSM, which uses frequencies that differ from the "GSM" used by some carriers in the US. I think the US protocol is also somewhat bastardized. Be sure you get a phone that is intended to roam in the country you intend to send it to. ------------------------------ From: Joseph <JoeOfSeattle@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Is it Possible to Buy a Cell Phone With no Plan? Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 16:53:32 -0700 Reply-To: JoeOfSeattle@yahoo.com On 19 Jun 2005 14:22:37 -0700, FrankBooth <acg_acg@hotmail.com> wrote: > I'm trying to buy a cell phone WITHOUT A PLAN. I am sending it to a > relative in another country where they will activate it. > So far I have not found a local shopping establishment that sells > them. > Can anyone recommend somewhere online where a cell WITHOUT A PLAN can > be purchased? Is it even possible? > Thanks in advance! For post paid service the only one that I know of in the US is Cingular. You will not be eligible for any promotional rates. You will also of course pay the standard activation fee (around $35 IIRC.) You will also likely need to pass a US credit check or if that's not possible they may ask for a substantial deposit on the account. If that's not possible you may be relegated to using prepaid service. There's also a newer service called Consumer Cellular http://www.consumercellular.com which will give you monthly service on the old AT&T TDMA network. You can get a free phone to join. My only comment on them is their rates don't appear to be anywhere as good as most of the majors such as cingular, T-Mobile, Sprint PCS, etc., but if you just want service without a contract that's an option. I don't know what their requirements are regarding whether you need to have a credit check with them. ------------------------------ From: NOTvalid@XmasNYC.Info Subject: Re: Is it Possible to Buy a Cell Phone With no Plan? Date: 19 Jun 2005 17:17:25 -0700 Radio Shack used to do that for sure in California but it cost like an extra $200.00. Look on Cargsllist for local people selling a used one real cheap Also Ebay. ------------------------------ From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com Subject: Re: Bell Divestiture Date: 19 Jun 2005 19:38:27 -0700 > [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: I was talking about Robert Bonomi's > claims that Bell System did just what the law required of them, and > not much else, unless it worked to their advantage. PAT] Well, isn't that how all businesses work? Geez, they're not a charity or a non-profit. Mr. B.'s writing seemed very indignant when he said the Trimline and Princess phones were only used to make extra profit. Again, isn't that what businesses do? If the customers didn't like the premium sets, they wouldn't have rented them. Yet they did. Obviously it was a win-win -- the customers got something they wanted (and were willing to pay for), and the company made money. What is so wrong with that? Anyway, as far as the claim they merely followed the law, I believe they spent quite a bit of money designing both the 300 and 500 telephone sets. The 500 G handset -- still in use today fifty years later -- was carefully researched to be as comfortable and fit as many people as possible. As a monopoly, the phone company did NOT have to go to that much trouble. Further, they had a renown industrial designer, Henry Dreyfus, design the set itself. This effort was not cheap, and certainly not required by law or service. As to the claims of not being able to support BBS's demands for new lines, I believe that occured well after Divesture, so it was not a Bell System problem (assuming it was as widespread as claimed). ------------------------------ From: bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) Subject: Re: Bell Divestiture Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:43:25 -0000 Organization: Widgets, Inc. In article <telecom24.277.14@telecom-digest.org>, <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote: > Robert Bonomi wrote: >> I _guarantee_ that AT&T and the Bells were not 'voluntarily' reducing the >> prices just because of a decrease in costs. >> There were precisely *two* possible reasons for a price reduction: >> 1) pressure from competition. >> 2) enough 'pent up demand' that the price reduction brought in 'more >> than enough additional volume' to make up for the reduction in >> profitability. > Neither of those make sense. There was not significant competition > before divesture except from other modes (ie writing a letter, > telegram). No competition for telephones, answering machines, fax machines, PBX's, modems? No competition for long-distance telephone calls? Do you know when divestiture occurred? Do you know how many years *earlier* MCI was founded? Do you have any idea when the company now known as Sprint was founded? Do you have any idea how many local telephone lines the company now known as Sprint was serving, in, say, 1976? Would you believe three and a half million lines? Do you know when MFS started laying its own 'bypass' fiber? Do you know when Merrill-Lynch laid the first bypass fiber loop in the U.S? > If you say the Bell System had no interest in the customer, I did not say that. They were *very* interested in the customer -- as a milkable source of revenue. > then it would not have lowered rates to meet that "pent up > demand", rather just put in more lines and made all the more money. 'Pent up demand" describes a _price-sensitive_ phenomenon. i.e., where the price is the primary barrier to additional sales. People want the product, but they _will_not_ buy more of it, at that high price. Drop the price, and people do buy more. If lowering the profit margin on a product by 25% only brings in 10% more business, you are better off with the smaller volume of sales. If lowering the profit margin on a product by 10% brings in 25% more business, you are 'money ahead' to do so. The latter scenario *precisely* describes the situations in which the Bell System lowered prices. They lowered their _profit_margin_ by *less* than the factor of increased sales, and thus pulled in more money from the customers. >>> I maintain it was mostly technology -- cheaper >>> terminal equipment and >carrier media followed by higher call >>> volume and greater economies of >scale -- that caused and still >>> cause long distance rates to fall. >> The _rate_ of deployment, however, was driven by the competition >> _doing_it_ FIRST. > Again that fails to explain the continual rate reductions before > divesture. Not to those who know the actual history. And that competition *was* there in the profit-making areas, a decade or more before divestiture. The Bell System's primary _profit_ sources were: (1) value-added business telephone services / equipment, (2) long-distance-derived revenues. Residential service was usually priced at break-even, or maybe a little below that. It was a 'necessary evil', to make the bread-and-butter business services a 'salable' item. BOTH of those profit sources were under significant competitive pressures, long (as in "well more than a decade") before divestiture. >> Can you name a single railroad that had a developed long-haul telecom >> network that _voluntarily_ converted to AT&T service? The one that I >> am aware of where that happened did it _because_ the railroad was >> *sold*, but the prior owner _kept_ the telecom operation *(including >> R-O-W on all that railroad's trackage) rather than including it in the >> sale. > The Pennsylvania Railroad/Penn Central network was privately owned, > maintained, and operated, then turned over to AT&T. Not, exactly a ringing endorsement for the approach -- Penn Central's management made so many "smart" decisions that the company went bankrupt and closed its doors. >> Home computers didn't *exist* until the mid 1970s. The Altair 8800 >> plans ran in PE's Jan 1975 issue. The APPLE-II didn't exist until >> late 1977. > But businesses and schools were heavy users of time sharing by the mid > 1960s -- using dial-up Teletypes. Revisionist history at work. Computer "time sharing" did not exist _at_all_ before mid-1964. By September of that year, DTSS could handle an amazing =seven= terminals. By 1968, capacity was up to several dozen simultaneous-use terminals. IBM didn't have an interactive time-sharing system offering until late 1967. As of 1970 it is doubtful that there were 10,000 simultaneous dial-up 'modem' calls active at any given time, across the entire United States. But the landscape _was_ changing rapidly. >> The first BBS went online in Feb 1978. Within two years, the operator >> of that system had crossed swords with the local telco >> _at_least_three_times_, where they refused to install the additional >> residential lines he wanted. Claiming he "had" to be running a >> business. Public-utility commission complaints ensued, and the telco >> did, in each case, end up installing the additional lines. >> Other large-scale "hobby BBSs" across the country reported similar >> problems. > That is a tariff issue. Rates for a business and residential line are > based on expected use. A non-profit is still considered a business. > Seems to me a high volume BBS should've been classified as a business > line due to high volume of use. _WHAT_ business?? In Randy's case it *was* just a hobby. No income, no membership 'fees', no nothing. All the expenses came out of his personal pocket. >> The mid-90's debacle _was_ Internet driven. > That was after divesture and the Bell System no longer existed at > that point. Well, it was the "Baby Bells" that couldn't handle the demand. didn't have enough physical ports on switches, hadn't properly projected the growth, and didn't have phone numbers to assign. Same management, same planning process. >> Even prior to divestiture, the 'road signs' were there for anyone to >> read. "Measurements" for quality of U.S. service were flat-lining, >> and in some cases, actually declining. >> Space was not an issue, generally. Possibly in a few central-city >> facilities in a few of the largest cities. > Space IS a MAJOR issue. Real estate is expensive in growing areas, > whether city or suburb. ESS takes up a far smaller footprint than the > equivalent No 5 crossbar location. Where the telco had an existing facility, there was no net savings realized by the fact that the replacement box had a smaller footprint than the box it replaced. Bell System bought/built facilities with planned-for 75-100 year life-spans, _including_ projected growth. >> "Speed" is not related to call-handling capacity. > Yes, it is. Speed of call set-up is irrelevant to the number of _connected_and_running_ calls that can be handled > I believe you yourself said it was the to the advantage of > common control equipment to get in and out of the call as quickly as > possible. A faster common control can handle more calls. Yes there is an advantage. It has nothing to do with the number of connected calls that can be passing through the switch at any given time. The advantage is that you can set-up/tear-down more calls, with _less_ equipment. As long as you have 'enough' equipment to set-up/tear-down more calls than the system can handle, in _less_ total time than the average duration of a call, the speed of the equipment does not constitute a limiting factor in capacity of the equipment. if the equipment is 'slow', then you merely have to have more elements, to achieve the required overall capacity. When the 'performance limit' is elsewhere -- e.g. as in the number of communications-paths through the matrix -- speeding up the 'common control' equipment has *zero* effect on the number of simultaneous calls that can be handled. >> The Bell system, like any regulated monopoly was _guaranteed_ a >> certain minimum rate-of-return on investments. > Regulated monopolies were NOT _guaranteed_ a minimum rate of return. You know not that of which you speak. You can find percentage figures spelled out in the franchise documents, granting the monopolies. > If they were Western Union would not have gone broke nor would the > railroads. Western Union and most of the railroads were 'regulated common carriers'. Not regulated monopolies. > In some locations of the Bell System and even today, regulators > mandate below-cost services for social reasons or deny rate > increases. > Very, *very* rarely was 'how' that money was spent > questioned. >> *NO*, <that> is _not_ true. >> As Pat pointed out, Ma Bell was under constant scrutiny by the news >> media and government and advocates. Shareholder gadflies made a point >> of disrupting stockholders' meetings every year. Activists filed >> constant lawsuits against the system. Primarily a 1970's and later phenomenon. You can generally count on your thumbs the number of rate increase requests that were _not_ granted in their entirety, between the end of WW 1, and, say, 1965. >> Can you name a feature/capability introduced by the Bell System after >> 1970 that was not present in third-party-provided, customer-owned, PBX >> equipment first? The only one I can think of is the "picturephone". > I guess to really answer that claim one would have to list the latest > PBX offerings of the Bell System of 1970, their cost, and the > competition's offerings. That does _not_ answer the question posed, Carterphone opened the door WIDE for third-party suppliers. Allow a couple of years for their first-generation gear to hit the market, and then start looking at _who_ introduces the new capabilities *first*. Aside from "picturephone", I can't think of _one_ where Bell/AT&T/WEco was first. > How many third party PBXs were available in 1970? A fair number. Rolm was the 800lb gorilla of the bunch. > Getting back to your claim the Bell System did nothing it didn't have > to, I did not say that. I said that what they did was for *their* advantage first, and if the customer benefited, well, that was an unimportant incidental. > let's not forget the Princess, Trimeline, Panel, Home Interphone, > and Bell Chime units. Princes and Trimline were 'marketing gimmicks' first and foremost. The market for 'additional' extension phones was stagnant, if not moribund. Princess and Trimline were "kickers" that marketing could sell up. 'Panel' was an interesting unit -- the house I grew up in had the first, and for more than 10 years, the _only_, residential installation of one of those phones in the entire state. The concept was better than the implementation; maintenance was an ongoing issue. Panel's "marketing gimmick" selling point was "Look, Ma no cord!" when the phone was hung up. As well as not sticking out into the room as far as a regular 'surface mount' wall phone. Bell had the customer's interest _so_much_ at heart that the customer had to _buy_ the enclosure for that phone (at significantly over $100 in 1964 dollars) *and* 'rent' (at the usual price) all the regular phone innards that were inside it). Home Interphone, and Bell Chime also fell into the category of 'marketing gimmick' _first_, An un-needed high-markup item that 'sales' could artificially create a demand for, and then fill. Primarily a revenue booster. >> 3-way calling, conference calling, call waiting, speed-dial, call >> 'camping', etc. Standard features on PBXs years before there was >> Centrex availability. And even longer before they were offered on >> plain-jane POTS service. > All available on Bell PBXs of the 1960s. "All", eh? Including the part of that list that you so carefully cut off? You are claiming that these features were available on Bell-provided PBX gear on customer premises, before they were available on Bell-provided PBX gear in the central office. >> 'Native touch-tone' was far less expensive for the telco than >> native pulse dialing. > Not in SxS, which required extra equipment. See Eng & Sci book. Hint: the SxS _was_not_capable_ of *native* touch-tone operation, a front end translation from touch-tone to pulse was required. >> To "sell" more extensions, they _had_ to have something that was >> 'acceptable' decor-wise to the decision-maker in the household. > Most families we knew did not bother paying extra for "premium" > telephone *sets*, BUT *did* pay +extra+ for _extensions_ in various > _rooms_ and particular <floors> of a house. Having three (3) phones-- > 'basement', 1st fl, 2nd fl, was very _common_ to -save- steps. The 'tolerance point' varied by household. _Average_ number of extensions per household, in households with more than one phone, climbed appreciably after introduction of Princess/Trimline, after having been comparatively stagnant for several years ... As in "something close to 80% of the total number of Princess/Trimline phones manufactured". >> [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Before Charlie Brown became Chairman of >> AT&T, he was President and CEO of Illinois Bell. At that time, he >> lived about two blocks from me in Rogers Park, a north side >> neighborhood in Chicago. In chatting with him at his home one day, he >> said to me basically what Robert Bonomi claims above. > I'm not sure which claims you're referring to. > I'm not claiming the Bell System was perfect, however, my own > experience as a customer in large organizations was that the service > was generally excellent and the company responsive, and that rates > were on a decline before divesture. > [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: I was talking about Robert Bonomi's > claims that Bell System did just what the law required of them, and > not much else, unless it worked to their advantage. PAT] ------------------------------ From: Tony P. <kd1s@nospamplease.cox.reallynospam.net> Subject: Re: Bell Divestiture Organization: ATCC Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 19:34:44 -0400 In article <telecom24.278.11@telecom-digest.org>, TELECOM Digest Editor noted in response: > Chicago is where the BBS concept got started. Randy Seuss and Ward > Christianson started the very first one. (In yesterday's Digest, > Robert Bonomi mentioned how Randy had such hassles with Illinois Bell > getting the lines he needed). Bell and Howell computers _were_ Apple > ][+ machines except for the lable on the front of them, and many of > them, such as mine, had not only a 300 baud modem card on a slot > inside, but an 'expanded memory' card as well, to go in another slot > inside, and a 'clock card' plus a couple of floppy disk driver > cards. I would guess that by 1980 there were a dozen or more BBS's > operating, all in Chicago or nearby suburbs, and almost none anywhere > else in the world. > The Library had their BBS (BELmont 5-3200) based on Bill Blue's > *People's Message System* as did a guy in Downers Grove, IL. Rogers > Park ABBS (973-ABBS [2227]) used some other kind of software for > Apple as I did with my original BBS called 'First Choice' > (SHEldrake-3-0001). But I soon decided to work with a different BBS > 'skeleton' to make 'Lake Shore Modem Magazine' on my other phone > line SHEldrake-3-0002 instead, and Lake Shore Modem Magazine went on > line in July, 1981. Tim had his Tandy Model 4 operating "Think BBS" > (based on the old IBM slogan) and Randy Suess kept plugging along > with his CBBS, until he eventually decided to go 'multi-user' with > his Chinet system, which was when all the trouble with the telephone > company got started, in 1984 I think. Ward and Randy were not only > first with the BBS concept, I think they were first with the > multi-user concept also (regards home or residential service). There > was a guy in Oak Park, Illinois using his Tandy Model-4 to run a > FIDO multi-user node around that same time, but I never did much > care for the FIDO people; they all seemed so prissy and > authoritarian, IMO. I did maintain a user group out of his node for > six months or so, but the FIDO bosses decided to ex-communicate his > entire system, so that was good enough for me: I had been off and on > using Usenet (via Portal) for a couple years at that point and > decided to give up on FIDO and use Usenet exclusively instead, and I > did that mostly with my Zenith Z-19 terminal and modem. From Randy > Suess one day I got a bunch of other very good working terminals and > modems as well; that was around 1983. I finally shut down my BBS > (Lakeshore Modem Magazine) on December 31, 1985 for good. PAT] Interesting about the TRS-80 Model 4 multi node. If I'm not mistaken that was running SIDOS. Here is the story behind SIDOS: In 1982 a friend of mine convinced me to spend hard earned money on a modem so I could connect the the NYBBLINK BBS here in Providence. A month after I'd gotten the modem NYBBLINK went down for good. So my friend Don Lambert decided to re-wire his Model III so that it had multiple RS-232 ports, and ISAM file system, as well as all sorts of communications enhancements to TRSDOS, enough so that it was a different O/S once he got through with it. After a few months of the two of us brainstorming and testing the crap out of the system Syslink was born. SIDOS was then run on two other BBS's in RI that spawned a major communications player. PowerNet and PowerCor both ran SIDOS. The operator of PowerCor then procured through some nefarious means a DEC MicroVax II and formed Intelecom Data Systems, or IDS. The assets of IDS were rolled up and became Conversent Communications. All because I didn't want to be stuck with a modem and nothing to connect to locally. [TELECOM Digest Editor's Note: Very, very interesting. There are a lot of good stories, mostly untold, from the early years of BBS'ing and networking. I'll bet an entire newsgroup could be started and maintained with just such accounts. But was SIDOS running on Model 4 as it came out of the factory? My friend with the Think BBS and the guy in Oak Park who ran a FIDO node brought their boxes home from Radio Shack, and plugged them in and started their sites within a day or two; no adaptation needed that I recall them saying. PAT] ------------------------------ TELECOM Digest is an electronic journal devoted mostly but not exclusively to telecommunications topics. It is circulated anywhere there is email, in addition to various telecom forums on a variety of networks such as Compuserve and America On Line, Yahoo Groups, and other forums. It is also gatewayed to Usenet where it appears as the moderated newsgroup 'comp.dcom.telecom'. TELECOM Digest is a not-for-profit, mostly non-commercial educational service offered to the Internet by Patrick Townson. All the contents of the Digest are compilation-copyrighted. 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